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  1. #21
    kimby is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongTail
    I use JDLR...Just Doesn't Look Right. I can then usually articulate reasonable suspicion later.
    Okay. I guess that's pretty much what Virginian was saying. But how do you know whether to articulate reasonable suspicion or probable cause?
    As you can see, I still don't really have a handle on this.

  2. #22
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    Garda is offline Policing with nothing but a smile
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    Probable cause does not exist in Ireland, all we have is reasonable suspicion and reason to believe. Suspicion is for arrest, search, etc belief is for charging and bringing before the courts.

    Easy way to explain? I suspect there is a god but I have no evidence to prove it. I believe in McDonalds existence because I can produce evidence of its existence.

    Reasonable suspicion is a mix of probabilities and possibilities that leads you to suspect something. Reason to believe is based on cold hard facts of a crime and your actions. You are a suspect based on location, history, your close proximity to the crime, lack of an alibi. Your an accused because there are witnesses that saw you, your fingerprints and your confession.

    In very short, if all else has failed, suspicion is lower on the crime solving ladder than belief is. Suspect (We think you may have done it) accused (We believe you did do it), offender (It has been proven that you did do it).
    Quote Originally Posted by TXCharlie
    Hey thanks Garda - I did think of you last night as I was lying in bed

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimby
    Okay. I guess that's pretty much what Virginian was saying. But how do you know whether to articulate reasonable suspicion or probable cause?
    As you can see, I still don't really have a handle on this.
    Depends on what action you take. Detaining someone requires a different level than going into their pockets.

  4. #24
    FishTail Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by kimby
    Okay. I guess that's pretty much what Virginian was saying. But how do you know whether to articulate reasonable suspicion or probable cause?
    As you can see, I still don't really have a handle on this.
    Something that sets off my JDLR meter will necessarily have some element of articulable sus built into it. I do the search on JDLR and then write up my articulable sus when I'm done. It comes with experience.

  5. #25
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    I would say PC is simpler, so rookies would tend to stick with that sort of issue, while RAS gets stickier, and experience helps back it up. But that's my inexperienced opinion

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimby
    Yeah. Maybe if I could somehow tie my question into sex, especially penis size, it would get more of a response. Actually, that might be helpful to me as well. Anybody have a sexual analogy for reasonable suspicion/probable cause?

    Let's see if we can come up with one..

    -Reasonable suspicion is an articulable reason to suspect that a person has engaged in or is planning to engage in a criminal act; a mere hunch is not enough. (you see a guy on the beach in a speedo and you look at his package and you suspect there to not be much!) lol

    -Probable Cause is where known facts and circumstances, of a reasonably trustworthy nature, are sufficient to justify a man of reasonable caution or prudence in the belief that a crime has been or is being committed.
    (You are at a nude beach and you view the guys pakage and you know there isn't anything there.)


    Ok thats a stretch... but thought it was funny anyways...
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  7. #27
    FishTail Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by LongTail
    Something that sets off my JDLR meter will necessarily have some element of articulable sus built into it. I do the search on JDLR and then write up my articulable sus when I'm done. It comes with experience.
    I'll expand on this a bit more...

    It works like this for me:

    I see a male snooping round some cars at 3am on a residential street, wearing dark clothing.

    My mind goes "BOING! That don't look right!"

    My logic and training go: time of day, clothing, suspicious activity.

    My mind is JDLR. My logic and training articulate the reasonable suspicion.

  8. #28
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    You guys need to go back to CJ class!!!
    • Reasonable Suspicion: Before you remove the sheet from her head, but you can still tell by the shape that something just ain't right.

    • Probable Cause: After you remove the sheet, but before you find your glasses - the blurry image is clear enough to conclude that it is indeed cause for alarm, but you don't know the extent of what you're looking at

    • Preponderance of Evidence: You find your glasses on the nightstand, but they turn out to be your sunglasses. Still, you can see most of it, so you kinda realize what the story really is

    • Beyond a Reasonable Doubt: You finally find your reading glasses, but the room is only lit by the flashing red "vacancy" sign outside your motel window - It's obvious now what she looks like. Even though you'd like to see her in full color (just to be sure), you conclude that a different color would'nt make it any better

    • Absolute Certainty: Turning on the light and realizing that speedy escape is imperative - No doubt remains at all


    (NOTE - This is a gender-neutral definition, just change "she" to "he")
    Last edited by TXCharlie; 02-04-06 at 06:02 PM.

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  9. #29
    kimby is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdm0409
    Let's see if we can come up with one..

    -Reasonable suspicion is an articulable reason to suspect that a person has engaged in or is planning to engage in a criminal act; a mere hunch is not enough. (you see a guy on the beach in a speedo and you look at his package and you suspect there to not be much!) lol

    -Probable Cause is where known facts and circumstances, of a reasonably trustworthy nature, are sufficient to justify a man of reasonable caution or prudence in the belief that a crime has been or is being committed.
    (You are at a nude beach and you view the guys pakage and you know there isn't anything there.)


    Ok thats a stretch... but thought it was funny anyways...
    I love this!!! I should have known kdm would come up with something.

  10. #30
    kimby is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by TXCharlie
    You guys need to go back to CJ class!!!
    • Reasonable Suspicion: Before you remove the sheet from her head, but you can still tell by the shape that something just ain't right.

    • Probable Cause: After you remove the sheet, but before you find your glasses

    • Preponderance of Evidence: You find your glasses on the nightstand, but they turn out to be your sunglasses. Still, you kinda see what the story is

    • Beyond a Reasonable Doubt: You finally find your reading glasses, but the room is only lit by the flashing red "vacancy" sign outside your motel window - You KNOW what she looks like but don't want to admit it.

    • Absolute Certainty: Turning on the light and realizing that speedy escape is imperative


    (NOTE - This is a gender-neutral definition, just change "she" to "he")
    LMAO. You sound like you've had personal experience with this.

  11. #31
    kimby is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongTail
    Something that sets off my JDLR meter will necessarily have some element of articulable sus built into it. I do the search on JDLR and then write up my articulable sus when I'm done. It comes with experience.
    Is "JDLR" a term other officers use or did you make it up?

  12. #32
    kimby is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garda30055A
    Probable cause does not exist in Ireland, all we have is reasonable suspicion and reason to believe. Suspicion is for arrest, search, etc belief is for charging and bringing before the courts.
    Would Reason to Believe be equivalent to Beyond a Reasonable Doubt?

  13. #33
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    I have nothing to add to the legal defs I've seen so far, very impressive guys.

    To put in civilian terms...

    I had an academy Instructor say that obtaining reasonable suspicion is like baking a cake. He said that each ingredient in and of itself does not make a cake. Egg, flour, cake mix...you have to put them all together.

    It's the same principal for RS although there are countless and varying "ingredients" to achieve RS. For example- a person in a known drug area, known felon, furtive movement, abrupt change in movement upon seeing a P/O., etc. Again each one in and of itself is not RS...you gotta put them together.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimby
    I love this!!! I should have known kdm would come up with something.

    Glad I could come through for ya lol
    It is better to be tried by 12, than carried by 6.
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  15. #35
    FishTail Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by kimby
    Is "JDLR" a term other officers use or did you make it up?
    I'm pretty sure I got it off another officer.

    The test for pretty much everything here (search, arrest etc) is "reasonable suspicion" which is defined as "would the ordinary reasonable man in the street suspect that [offence has been committed, drugs are in his pocket etc]".

    It's nowhere near "beyond a reasonable doubt". It's closer to "on the balance of probability" (and is probably lower even than that).

  16. #36
    Garda's Avatar
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    No way

    Quote Originally Posted by kimby
    Would Reason to Believe be equivalent to Beyond a Reasonable Doubt?
    Absolutely not. Reasonable suspicion means a person can understand and see why I thought the person MAY have commited an offence. Beyond means that there is little doubt in peoples minds and in all probability the person DID commit the offence. The first makes you a suspect, the second makes you a criminal.

    BTW, excellent explanation Brick!
    Quote Originally Posted by TXCharlie
    Hey thanks Garda - I did think of you last night as I was lying in bed

  17. #37
    kimby is offline Banned
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Garda30055A
    Absolutely not. Reasonable suspicion means a person can understand and see why I thought the person MAY have commited an offence. Beyond means that there is little doubt in peoples minds and in all probability the person DID commit the offence. The first makes you a suspect, the second makes you a criminal.

    BTW, excellent explanation Brick!
    Okay. I was just trying to fit it into TxCharlie's definitions and figure out the closest U.S. equivalent for Reason to Believe.

 

 
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