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  1. #1
    pooldoggie is offline Rookie
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    newbie with shooting senario question

    Hey Officers-
    First let me thank all that have"served & protected" us civilians and may God bless you and your families.
    Now I have a police shooting in my small town thats the center of a heated community debate.And I would like to hear another perspective on the different responses that other officers might have. Here goes--One 16yr old minor has a altercation with his un-armed probation officers that were there to take him into custody.He refused and ended up being pepper-sprayed.At that point he,in the process of fleeing, pulled a 10inch ridged Buck knife and yelled "I'm not going back" as he fled the house. A solo patrol officer shows up to the call and witnesses confirm that the juvenile has ran down into a extremely thick brushed gullie that runs between sub-divisions.The gullie is about 50yrds wide by 125yrds long.The responding officer,without calling for back-up,heard the suspect breaking branches,determined his approx. location and entered the brush. 20-50 ft later encountered the armed-suspect in dense brush at a range of 5-8ft the officer responded"Stop-drop the weapon" the suspect stopped trying to dig through the brush,turned to the officer with blade in hand and says" I don wanna go" and comes at the officer, which inturn, double-taps his .40 into the chest at a range of 5-6ft. with fatal outcome.
    What would your response be to this senario? We here agree on the self-defense of the officer.But question the tactical response.

  2. #2
    LawnMM is offline Oppressor of Crackheads
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    Chasing armed suspects into low visibility areas without backup is tactically stupid. Thats what dogs are for.

  3. #3
    tapout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pooldoggie View Post
    . encountered the armed-suspect in dense brush at a range of 5-8ft the officer responded"Stop-drop the weapon" the suspect stopped trying to dig through the brush,turned to the officer with blade in hand and says" I don wanna go" and comes at the officer, which inturn, double-taps his .40 into the chest at a range of 5-6ft. with fatal outcome.
    .
    due to the sheer danger described above, and the fact that my life is obviously at stake here...

    i would holster my weapon, take an interview stance, and transition into advanced hand to hand knife defense mode, disarming the enraged knife wielding teen with a wrist lock knife chop. then i would hip toss him to the ground, still maintaining control of the arm, and step across his head while sitting back throwing him into an armbar, thus forcing him to say uncle. i would then handcuff him to me so he could not escape again, and march him right back to his p and p officer, who would then make him put on a pointy "dunce" cap and sit in the corner like the bad attempted murderer that he allegedly is.

    thats just me though
    in the warriors code there's no surrender, though his body says stop, his spirit cries...NEVER. deep in our souls, a quiet ember, knows its you against you, its the paradox that drives us all. its a battle of wills, in the heat of attack, its the passion that kills, and victory is yours alone.


    the posts and opinions stated by me do not in any way reflect the values, beliefs, or views of my department. they are simply opinions and/or observations which have been developed through my personal experiences. hell, most of the stories probably arent even true...wink wink

  4. #4
    jmur5074's Avatar
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    I'm not really interested in arm chair quarterbacking the officer involved.
    No one has greater love than this, to lay down ones life for ones friends - John 15:13

    "The Wicked Flee When No Man Pursueth: But The Righteous Are Bold As A Lion".

    We lucky few, we band of brothers. For he who today sheds his blood with me shall be my brother.

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  5. #5
    J-WS6 is offline What Willis was talking about
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    Good shoot.

    Can't really evaulate the tactical decisions made without seeing the scene.
    Why kill em with kindness, when you can use an axe?

  6. #6
    countybear's Avatar
    countybear is offline BDRT - Baby Daddy Removal Team
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    From your post, it seems to me that you of course understand already that any person lunging at another while brandishing a 10' knife from a distance of 5-6' well justifies the use of deadly force in self-defense, (police officer or not). I would call the kid suicidal, he just chose the cop to complete the act.

    The question that you are asking is much more complex than I think you appreciate. By asking us to comment on the officer's "tactical response", as you put it, you are asking us basically to critique the officer's decision-making process in going in after the kid. The problem is, I don't really think any of us are capable of making a well-informed call on that. The reason for that is simply that an officer's decision-making process is his own... it is a combination of his training, experience, statutory law (or his understanding of it), and his departmental policy. His decision must be weighed against all of this, with external and environmental circumstances (at the time of the incident) also considered.

    In most such cases, a comprehensive investigation by an outside agency will be conducted, (usually by the State), their findings will be forwarded to a Grand Jury for consideration as well. The findings of this investigation will be publicized, certainly. I suggest that those concerned about the incident remain alert to the findings of the investigators for answers.

    In the meantime, though, consider the officer involved, who most likely kissed his loved ones 'goodbye' before going on shift, having no idea that he was going to have to kill a kid in order to survive long enough to see them again.

    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
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  7. #7
    lewisipso's Avatar
    lewisipso is offline Injustice/Indifference/In God we trust
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    Quote Originally Posted by countybear View Post
    From your post, it seems to me that you of course understand already that any person lunging at another while brandishing a 10' knife from a distance of 5-6' well justifies the use of deadly force in self-defense, (police officer or not). I would call the kid suicidal, he just chose the cop to complete the act.

    The question that you are asking is much more complex than I think you appreciate. By asking us to comment on the officer's "tactical response", as you put it, you are asking us basically to critique the officer's decision-making process in going in after the kid. The problem is, I don't really think any of us are capable of making a well-informed call on that. The reason for that is simply that an officer's decision-making process is his own... it is a combination of his training, experience, statutory law (or his understanding of it), and his departmental policy. His decision must be weighed against all of this, with external and environmental circumstances (at the time of the incident) also considered.

    In most such cases, a comprehensive investigation by an outside agency will be conducted, (usually by the State), their findings will be forwarded to a Grand Jury for consideration as well. The findings of this investigation will be publicized, certainly. I suggest that those concerned about the incident remain alert to the findings of the investigators for answers.

    In the meantime, though, consider the officer involved, who most likely kissed his loved ones 'goodbye' before going on shift, having no idea that he was going to have to kill a kid in order to survive long enough to see them again.

    +1
    Do not war for peace. If you must war, war for justice. For without justice there is no peace. -me

    We are who we choose to be.

    R.I.P. Arielle. 08/20/2010-09/16/2012


  8. #8
    Buzzy's Avatar
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    countybear, very well said.

  9. #9
    Pudge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by countybear View Post
    From your post, it seems to me that you of course understand already that any person lunging at another while brandishing a 10' knife from a distance of 5-6' well justifies the use of deadly force in self-defense, (police officer or not). I would call the kid suicidal, he just chose the cop to complete the act.

    The question that you are asking is much more complex than I think you appreciate. By asking us to comment on the officer's "tactical response", as you put it, you are asking us basically to critique the officer's decision-making process in going in after the kid. The problem is, I don't really think any of us are capable of making a well-informed call on that. The reason for that is simply that an officer's decision-making process is his own... it is a combination of his training, experience, statutory law (or his understanding of it), and his departmental policy. His decision must be weighed against all of this, with external and environmental circumstances (at the time of the incident) also considered.

    In most such cases, a comprehensive investigation by an outside agency will be conducted, (usually by the State), their findings will be forwarded to a Grand Jury for consideration as well. The findings of this investigation will be publicized, certainly. I suggest that those concerned about the incident remain alert to the findings of the investigators for answers.

    In the meantime, though, consider the officer involved, who most likely kissed his loved ones 'goodbye' before going on shift, having no idea that he was going to have to kill a kid in order to survive long enough to see them again.

    Yeah, what he said!


    Very well put brother!
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  10. #10
    Beans's Avatar
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    None of us were there and know what the officer was thinking. Instead of tryng to second guess the officers actions, let us remember that he has to now live with memory that he had to kill a 16 year old.
    No one told the kid to do what he did. The important thing is that officer's kids still have a dad.
    If this thread turns into a bashing of an officers actions, I will shut it down. A public forum is not the place to discuss this.
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  11. #11
    BigDawg's Avatar
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    County Bear, that was very well said. And should sum it up for all involved.


    The only thing I will add is that my thoughts and prayers go out to this officer and the family of the victim. I hope they all can come to terms to what has happened in their lives, and may they one day find peace.
    "An Unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." Jeff Cooper


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  12. #12
    tapout's Avatar
    tapout is offline keepin it gangsta'
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beans View Post
    None of us were there and know what the officer was thinking. Instead of tryng to second guess the officers actions, let us remember that he has to now live with memory that he had to kill a 16 year old.
    No one told the kid to do what he did. The important thing is that officer's kids still have a dad.
    If this thread turns into a bashing of an officers actions, I will shut it down. A public forum is not the place to discuss this.
    i agree with your reasons for posting this for the most part, but i really think it was unneccessary (so far).

    first off, obviously none of us were there...and i dont think anyone has bashed the officers actions, or intends to.

    2nd off, if a civilian with no training does decide to play monday morning qb and negatively critiques the officer in a public forum...who cares? they have no actual training or experience. and the facts that they have are all 3rd hand info, due to the fact that they werent there, and probably got their info from someone else who wasnt there etc.

    3rd off, the guy just asked a question...it seemed sincere enough, the way he worded it. if he has a hidden agenda, it will surface, and so be it. but he has no other option but to ask the question in a public forum, being that he is not an leo...or should we change the forum to "ask a cop a pre approved question and get an answer only if we believe everyone will agree"

    personally i like to see people debate hot issues...and i like to see all different opinions and perspectives, negative or not. however, that being said, based on the account given here, i dont think there is much to debate. it seems pretty clear.

    just my opinion.

    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to countybear again.
    in the warriors code there's no surrender, though his body says stop, his spirit cries...NEVER. deep in our souls, a quiet ember, knows its you against you, its the paradox that drives us all. its a battle of wills, in the heat of attack, its the passion that kills, and victory is yours alone.


    the posts and opinions stated by me do not in any way reflect the values, beliefs, or views of my department. they are simply opinions and/or observations which have been developed through my personal experiences. hell, most of the stories probably arent even true...wink wink

  13. #13
    Beans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tapout View Post
    i agree with your reasons for posting this for the most part, but i really think it was unneccessary (so far).

    first off, obviously none of us were there...and i dont think anyone has bashed the officers actions, or intends to.

    2nd off, if a civilian with no training does decide to play monday morning qb and negatively critiques the officer in a public forum...who cares? they have no actual training or experience. and the facts that they have are all 3rd hand info, due to the fact that they werent there, and probably got their info from someone else who wasnt there etc.

    3rd off, the guy just asked a question...it seemed sincere enough, the way he worded it. if he has a hidden agenda, it will surface, and so be it. but he has no other option but to ask the question in a public forum, being that he is not an leo...or should we change the forum to "ask a cop a pre approved question and get an answer only if we believe everyone will agree"

    personally i like to see people debate hot issues...and i like to see all different opinions and perspectives, negative or not. however, that being said, based on the account given here, i dont think there is much to debate. it seems pretty clear.

    just my opinion.

    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to countybear again.
    First off I never said anyone DID bash the officer's actions, I said IF the thread turns into a bashing I would shut it down.

    I have no problem with civilians asking questions. I am not trying to be heavy handed Mod. However, I do have a problem when someone comes on here and tries to bate us into a fight. Maybe that was not the intention.

    If you guys want to debate this be my guest. I just don't want to see an officer raked over the coals when none of us were there and all we have is this third hand account.
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  14. #14
    tapout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beans View Post
    First off I never said anyone DID bash the officer's actions, I said IF the thread turns into a bashing I would shut it down.

    .
    i know, thats why i said i agree with your reasoning for posting it, just thought it was unneccessary, because it had not happened...

    thats like saying if you violate the terms of agreement of the site, you will be warned or possibly banned...no kidding

    but i see where youre coming from
    in the warriors code there's no surrender, though his body says stop, his spirit cries...NEVER. deep in our souls, a quiet ember, knows its you against you, its the paradox that drives us all. its a battle of wills, in the heat of attack, its the passion that kills, and victory is yours alone.


    the posts and opinions stated by me do not in any way reflect the values, beliefs, or views of my department. they are simply opinions and/or observations which have been developed through my personal experiences. hell, most of the stories probably arent even true...wink wink

  15. #15
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by tapout View Post
    i know, thats why i said i agree with your reasoning for posting it, just thought it was unneccessary, because it had not happened...

    thats like saying if you violate the terms of agreement of the site, you will be warned or possibly banned...no kidding

    but i see where youre coming from
    I am sorry you thought it was unnecessary. It was mostly for the poster, who I am still not sure had good intentions.

    Anyway, be safe brother.
    The opinions given in my posts DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "Beans" on LEF.

  17. #17
    tapout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beans View Post
    I am sorry you thought it was unnecessary. It was mostly for the poster, who I am still not sure had good intentions or not.

    Anyway, be safe brother.

    you definitely dont need to apologize to me...i wasnt trying to start a confrontation, i just felt that when you posted that it was gonna deter anyone else from posting anything at all. like i said though, i saw your point.
    in the warriors code there's no surrender, though his body says stop, his spirit cries...NEVER. deep in our souls, a quiet ember, knows its you against you, its the paradox that drives us all. its a battle of wills, in the heat of attack, its the passion that kills, and victory is yours alone.


    the posts and opinions stated by me do not in any way reflect the values, beliefs, or views of my department. they are simply opinions and/or observations which have been developed through my personal experiences. hell, most of the stories probably arent even true...wink wink

  18. #18
    Beans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tapout View Post
    you definitely dont need to apologize to me...i wasnt trying to start a confrontation, i just felt that when you posted that it was gonna deter anyone else from posting anything at all. like i said though, i saw your point.
    It's cool. I guess what I should have said is, debate away, just don't bash the officer in doing so.

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  19. #19
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    I thgink Country Bear, gave the perfect answer and I hopw that helps our non leo friend who asked the question. As for me I always stick with the addage, don't bring a knife to a gun fight. I think with what limited info I have, it was a good shoot!
    Giggity giggity Goo!

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