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Thread: K9 Training

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy
    Not trying to start something...honestly.

    However, I have to respond to that. There are many reasons for training a dog in bite work whether it be personal protection, schutzhund or this "ring sport."
    So you disagree with a trained and certified K-9 Officer...

  2. #22
    Indy Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Terminator
    So you disagree with a trained and certified K-9 Officer...
    In that case, yes.

  3. #23
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    better than the brown but I still prefer Black and white


    Indy anyone who is training the dog in bite work but not in LE is opening themselves up to a law suit...ask the couple in San Fran who is currently in jail....although i see you do not recommend it......

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy
    Ok I'm getting ready to break the rule about replies in AAC so brace yourself. I apologize in advance.

    What in the hell is "American street ring?" I've been through a lot of working dog circles and never heard that term. The only other person I've seen use that term was a long ago poster on RP and no one had any idea what they (you?) were talking about.

    And what do you mean "bring him in schutzhund 1, 2, 3?" Those are levels. You have a dog in one level until he advances to the next, not all three at the same time.
    Breaking the rules in ask-a-cop is not okay, and not something I am going to brace myself for. We tried doing something that satisfied everyone's needs. You butting in and breaking the rules defeats the purpose of what Will and I have done. If you cannot follow the rules you could lose the ability to post in ask-a-cop.

    Also, not sure why you're being so hostile to a new user, whom you don't even know? That gives a them a poor perception of the site.

  5. #25
    Indy Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by PACMAN
    better than the brown but I still prefer Black and white


    Indy anyone who is training the dog in bite work but not in LE is opening themselves up to a law suit...ask the couple in San Fran who is currently in jail....although i see you do not recommend it......
    The couple in san francisco were training their dogs highly inappropriately based on the writing done regarding their dogs. They were training the dogs to be "aggressive." There is a huge difference between properly training your dog in bite work and just teaching your dog to "bite." I'm sure I do not need to tell you that though.

    That couple skipped the vital fundamentals and just skipped right on ahead to the attack work. Not only that, but their dogs came from proven lines of rather aggressive fighting stock, not proven schutzhund and working lines. They did not have the appropriate temperment, training, handlers, or setting. They had X's against them in all categories. Given the circumstances, the dogs reacted in the only way they knew how. Their owners are 100% to blame for what happened. They had no business training them to bite.

  6. #26
    Indy Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Terminator

    Also, not sure why you're being so hostile to a new user, whom you don't even know? That gives a them a poor perception of the site.
    I'm not being hostile to anyone. You'll note I just gave the user a great reference to get him (her?) started in the right direction. Not only that, but defended the training of the dog in bite work which you have apparently taken offense to.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy
    The couple in san francisco were training their dogs highly inappropriately based on the writing done regarding their dogs. They were training the dogs to be "aggressive." There is a huge difference between properly training your dog in bite work and just teaching your dog to "bite." I'm sure I do not need to tell you that though.

    That couple skipped the vital fundamentals and just skipped right on ahead to the attack work. Not only that, but their dogs came from proven lines of rather aggressive fighting stock, not proven schutzhund and working lines. They did not have the appropriate temperment, training, handlers, or setting. They had X's against them in all categories. Given the circumstances, the dogs reacted in the only way they knew how. Their owners are 100% to blame for what happened. They had no business training them to bite.
    what is your status in training K9's? are you a certified master handler for training LE working dogs.....you know where I am going right?

  8. #28
    Indy Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by PACMAN
    what is your status in training K9's? are you a certified master handler for training LE working dogs.....you know where I am going right?
    LE dogs and schutzhund dogs are two very different things. Though there are some similiarities, schutzhund for sport is not K-9. I do not need to know a thing about K-9 to be knowledgeable in schutzhund.

    This person was not asking about K-9 training. I was unaware it was not ok to discuss other methods of training that one is familiar with?

  9. #29
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    But you do need to know the liability in training any dog in agression work whatever the blood line. Any K9 cop will tell you that if your dog bites then you are responsible and would be charged criminally. The difference between you and me is that I am covered under the use of force and my agency for liability. No matter how well tempered your dog is ANY dog can have a bad day and turn.....I am sure there are several other Certified Handlers on this site that would back me on this one.......agression work is agression work plain and simple....weather french ring, schutzhund or Law Enforcement Bite work...I just want to make that line clear to you....

  10. #30
    Indy Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by PACMAN
    But you do need to know the liability in training any dog in agression work whatever the blood line.Any K9 cop will tell you that if your dog bites then you are responsible and would be charged criminally. The difference between you and me is that I am covered under the use of force and my agency for liability. No matter how well tempered your dog is ANY dog can have a bad day and turn.....I am sure there are several other Certified Handlers on this site that would back me on this one.......agression work is agression work plain and simple....weather french ring, schutzhund or Law Enforcement Bite work...I just want to make that line clear to you....
    I was going to bold a couple of those statements, but it would have ended up highlighting the entire paragraph. I could not agree with you more that it is a liability and one needs to be prepared for that.

  11. #31
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    Originally Posted by THE LAW
    I am a trainer. Are you a cop? If not I would suggest that you stay away from aggression work. The dogs natural aggression will surface as the territory sets in. If you arent LE or have a really good reason for wanting the training its a very very bad idea.
    Originally Posted by Indy
    I have to respond to that. There are many reasons for training a dog in bite work whether it be personal protection, schutzhund or this "ring sport."
    Originally Posted by Terminator
    So you disagree with a trained and certified K-9 Officer...
    Originally Posted by Indy
    In that case, yes.
    Originally Posted by Indy
    I could not agree with you more that it is a liability and one needs to be prepared for that.

    So you think dog owner's should teach biting techniques to their dog, against what a trained and certified K-9 officer is telling you, yet you also agree that it's a liability to do such a thing? Maybe, I'm missing something...

  12. #32
    Indy Guest
    We took it to PM's. Pacman is aware of my respect for his position and we continued the talk elsewhere.
    Last edited by Terminator; 01-19-06 at 12:27 AM.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACMAN
    Malinois "the Ferari of police dogs"
    No lie - I saw a live police demo a year or two ago. That little rascal watched his master joke around with the "bad guy" for a couple of minutes, with them patting each other on the back, etc...

    All of the sudden the "bad guy" made a threatening move toward the cop, the cop jumped back, and his Malinois FLEW through the air for at least 12 feet it seemed, hitting the "bad guy" squarely in the throat and knocking him to the ground.

    Very impressive! All he needs is a UnderDog cape

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  14. #34
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    I do not see the different between a LE dog and a Dog which is French ring, Sch and ASR and search and rescue trained.

  15. #35
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    because if you have a civilian dog that you are training in any kind of aggression work, without being trained or certified by your state, your agency, or a master handler and you are a civilian you can be criminally charged if that dog bites someone. Why because YOU trained it in aggression.

    I have a buddy who does french ring....or used to before I left Maine. I have to say this but will piss people off. He too had many of the arguments I am seeing here about his skill as a handler and why he does french ring. All he was, was a wannabe cop who was a real wannabe K9 handler but knew he never could...sorry but in his case that was the truth....and now I am jaded when I see civilians trying to do aggression work with any dog and telling me how I should or should not train my dog....

  16. #36
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    Also what do you think officers do when they confront a aggressive dog when we are out on a call? We certainly do not go here puppy puppy. Nope hell when I was with my last department I tazed two dogs because they were coming at me and a co-worker teeth bared and charging. At my current department I do not have a taser so guess what, the dog would get shot.

    Its simple you are not trained to actively control your dog in those types of situations. Therefor your dog should not be trained to do the things that an LE dog does. Its simple get it through your thick head. Because I am telling you this, if your dog ever came at me and was being aggressive I am going to put a .40 cal bullet in him/her. Thats all there is to it.
    Being the best is not what always counts. What counts is always trying your best.

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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris2001
    Also what do you think officers do when they confront a aggressive dog when we are out on a call? We certainly do not go here puppy puppy. Nope hell when I was with my last department I tazed two dogs because they were coming at me and a co-worker teeth bared and charging. At my current department I do not have a taser so guess what, the dog would get shot.

    Its simple you are not trained to actively control your dog in those types of situations. Therefor your dog should not be trained to do the things that an LE dog does. Its simple get it through your thick head. Because I am telling you this, if your dog ever came at me and was being aggressive I am going to put a .40 cal bullet in him/her. Thats all there is to it.
    didn't we just talk about this on the phone last week....by the way that would be my dog, that I was talking about..

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACMAN
    didn't we just talk about this on the phone last week....by the way that would be my dog, that I was talking about..
    Yes I do I believe I told you the story about those two dogs that came at myself and my partner. Although I am still talking to the department currently about going with a dog. Not sure if they city council is going to go for it but who knows. We do have a new commissioner coming in pretty soon that is very pro-cop from what we are being told.
    Being the best is not what always counts. What counts is always trying your best.

    Remember who you are, and where you came from. That way you never get a big head.


    May those that lost their lives in 9-11 RIP, for the things you did not many could do. You left so many behind so that you could save so few. For now we stand strong as one, and will not look back till the fight is done. (me)

    http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Nowwhat%...5Csuphomey.jpg

    The opinions given in my posts DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are MY PERSONAL OPINIONS only.

  19. #39
    Indy Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by chris2001

    Its simple you are not trained to actively control your dog in those types of situations.
    That is completely untrue. Schtuzhund handlers are trained exactly how to handle their dogs. They actually spend significantly longer training their dogs than most K-9 departments.

    Quote Originally Posted by chris2001
    Therefor your dog should not be trained to do the things that an LE dog does.
    Schutzhund existed long before the standard use of police K-9's. Whom is copying whom?

    Those here that are arguing against SchH are those that do not know what it is. It is not a matter of "sic em!" These are highly bred, highly trained, and highly skilled dogs and handlers.

    As far as shooting an aggressive dog, I would too if I were an officer and a dog came after me. But the context you're using that scenario in is wrong. How many schutzhund dogs have gone after you? Likely, none. Those are pets trying to defend their turf when they have not been trained an appropriate response. Not only that, but a responsible schutzhund handler isn't going to leave the dog running loose in a backyard to get into a mess like that. SchH dogs are not "aggressive." They are trained in apprehension. To them, it is a game of bite the sleeve. Most dogs will not even actively engage someone not wearing a sleeve because they've been trained to go after the SLEEVE. Early bite work training consists of tug games and building drive to the sleeve - not the person. There are tremendous differences in the training and purpose between a LE dog and a SchH dog. It is pointless to even argue about the differences because any SchH person will acknowledge it is not the same. Those sitting there saying people that work SchH dogs are "wannabe cops" are completely out of line. While you are entitled to your beliefs, most SchH handlers want nothing to do with K-9. Again, it is not the same thing.

    Edited to add: lop, it seems (from another post), wants the assistance of a K-9 handler to train the dog. My defense of the sport of schutzhund is of a different matter. SchH handlers don't ask for bite work advice from K-9 handlers for the exact reasons mentioned above.
    Last edited by Indy; 01-19-06 at 03:29 PM.

  20. #40
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    Ok now i'm trying to learn something. I'm going to train the dog the basic obedience . Now you tell me what is in the basic obedience ?

    I do not like to give grief here heavens no. You can be happy when the dog is showing the teeth. Our border collie is way different.

    She is a social butterfly. Loves people and kid's. Is trained not to herd and not to bark. She used to be a show dog.

    It was a nice sumer afternoon. I went out with my kid's on the playground. There was a boy who did not left my dog alone. I told him that she does not liked to get stroked. He did not listen. Our dog was on the leash and laying down. Head on the floor . Just overall a nice relaxing dog . All the sudden she turned around and was trying to bite him. Borders are low walker/runners. She almost had him in the face. I was faster lucky me. I did pulled her back. I did not fellt a growl on the leash , no bark, not showing the teeth. No fur was standing in her back. The attack was silent and very fast.

    Is she trained for the attack ? NO. She is not. I have no idea if she would listen to me when she is off the leash and attacking a person. . I would love to find it out before it is too late. . She goes on heel on a busy main road without the leash. She is very good on her basic. In the basic comands there should be also the attack in it. Why? If a person is trying to attack me , I have no idea how my dog will react.

    or better question. Granny goes with her pooch on the road . Her dog does know the basic comands. All the sudden she gets attacked from an individium. Her dog so friendly too other people is attacking the individium. How can Granny now call him back when he never got trained for it ? I don't think that Granny will go in between the dog and the bad guy.

    I think you might understand me here as well. I rather have one trained dog which i can control in all situations.

    We shall keep this topic calm as possible.

 

 
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