Do you feel the 9mm is an ineffective duty weapon?

[Donut Aficionado]

I voted NO. I like the 9MM because I can place more rounds on target faster. I use Speer Gold Dots for my off duty guns, a 9 and .45.

Loaded with the correct ammo a 9MM is a very effective round. Placed in the wrong spot a .45 will need a follow up shot and you should always be prepared to follow up. NEVER COUNT ON A ONE SHOT STOP! Fire until the threat is eliminated.

[Hannibal]

One thing about the 9-mil is that a lot of people can fire it faster than they can shoot a .45 or other heavier caliber. The result is more rounds on target.

Maybe one 9-mil won't stop someone as fast as a .45, but faster recovery time between shots would mean an average person can hit the target with more than one.

If you can't give the best, at least give the most.

I see a lot of departments go to a 45 or even a 40. They end up dropping the bullet weight so the officers can shoot better due to the problems of handling the heavier recoil. It can have a negating effect to the whole reason of switching to the bigger gun.

Not that I want to argue ballistics which is worse than arguing about religion or politics.

+1 What he said.....

Our agency is doing just that. We are transitioning to the .40 from the 9mm and... suprise, suprise... the folks who barely qualified with the 9mm are having trouble with the .40. So the fix is a lighter .40, which brings you to about the same ballistic value.

I personally do not like the .40 cal (personal preference). I would rather have a .45 or a .357 Sig, but it is what it is. I was hoping that the .45 GAP would catch on, it performs well but is pleasant to shoot and allows for a double stack mag that can still fit a small handed officer's grip.

[TXPO710]

Another thing to consider; I've done this test so it's personal experience. The 9mm won't consitantly penatrate a car door or windshield. The 45 did.

[HardNoseBull]

I agree with previous comments about shot placement. if i was going to choose a my fav calibre, i'm very impressed with .357 sig. makes for a great duty gun, some state agencies are using that. IMHO most LEO/CO's would not be as accurate with a .45. I've seen it fist hand, i take a friend who carries a 9mm or a .40 and they shoot each others rounds, usually they have less flinch and better results with the 9mm. Of course someone will argue that point and I'm good with that. I can only speak from personal experiance and so far thats what i have seen. the other issue is that everyone thinks that any leo/co that carries a gun is probably a good shot. the majority of Officers I work with shoot once a year when they qualify. i enjoy shooting so i shoot a lot. Even talking to friends in other agencies its the same thing. The best shots i have so far, majority of them were non-leo's. So that unto itself open another can of worms.

[samurai361]

I watched a video of a Trooper who got into a close range shootout with a meth head. He shot the meth head about 4-5 times with his 40 or maybe 45 cal. Not sure.
Trooper got shot ONCE with a .22cal and bled internally until he died on his dash cam.
D@$khead lived,
Trooper died

I believe you are talking about Trooper Coates of the SCHP and he shot that man with 5 rounds of .357 in his chest. The one round that struck the trooper entered under the armpit to the main artery near his heart, causing him to blead out, while the criminal, a very overweight man, absorbed the rounds which were not life threatening. There is another video of a shootout in GA which, along with this one, I make every rookie who rides with me watch. I want them to know what's out there waiting that they need to be prepared for.

FWIW, I would prefer a .40 to carry, but most of the people I work with can barely qualify with the 9mm. Shot placement is a nice concept, but most officers shoot very poorly in confrontations, so I want lots of big bullets. If half of them hit the bad guy, I want them to hurt when they do.

[MacLean]

Proper instruction removes flinch issues with the .40 or .45, but people look for shortcuts rather than spend time properly instructing.

[Norm357]

I can't remember if I am allowed to post in this section or not...

The 9MM with modern hollow point ammo is a good round. Hell, I have problems finding people to let me shoot them with my .38, even though these same people tell me I am out gunned.

[armsmaster270]

I can't vote either way as I think it is a maybe. Maybe if the shooter ia a good shot, maybe if he has the right ammo etc.

as stated earlier todays 9mm is not yesterdays 9mm I have seen report of too many perp's taking multiple hits from 9mm and walking away, not all hardball ammo. part of this is training too many officers act as if putting 20 round downrange in a hurry is equal to one well placed hit, the old spray and pray syndrome.

Personally I prefer the 40 or 45 and also the 357sig most departments that allow multiple calibers don't allow the 357sig as the ammo is too expensive compared to the other "standard" calibers and they have to furnish the ammo. In the old days they gave a box of 158gr lead ball 38 and after that you bought your own. That was when Super Vels came out 110gr JHP and the hottest 38/357 load out at the time.Now everyone makes a good round.

[Trojan 42]

Let's not forget that a 'well placed shot' isn't that easy to acheive when the target is moving and even harder when they are shooting back.

And medically speaking the shock to the body of two hits is Four times as effective as One hit, so the more hits on target, in the shortest time should also be considered.

[MacLean]

And medically speaking the shock to the body of two hits is Four times as effective as One hit, so the more hits on target, in the shortest time should also be considered.

That's an interesting way to think of terminal ballistics. Do you have a cite on that?

(interest area of mine)

[Trojan 42]

Sorry Mac, it was something I was taught by an Army Trauma surgeon on an advanced first aid course. In his experience the body copes quite well shutting down blood vessels around a single wound, as an automatic defence system. However two (or more) are more than the defence mechanism can deal with, so the shock effect is quadrupled.

I've seen guys hit with a single round that have not gone down, even with decent shot placement, but those I've seen hit with more than one round have gone down reasonably soon afterwards, so I think the Surgeon had a point.

[LitchRes]

Is it effective?? sure, if the shot is placed in the correct place, a .22 cal will do the job if placed right. A couple others asked if it was the best choice for law enforcement? Absolutely not ! .40 or .45 is much better.

[k-9max]

With the right ammo, the 9mm is effective.

[TXPO710]

[quote=Trojan 42;334912]two hits is Four times as effective as One hit[quote]
Ahh, but 2 hits from say a 12 gage slug is even more devistating, right????

[dadyswat]

Actually, S&W probably had the best round for police service when they developed the 41mag. This goes back quite a ways but the weapon was a revolver, Model 58 if I remember right, with a police round that was 210 gr semi wad cutter design. It came in around 900-950 fps. Back then the magnum word scared the hell out of administrators.

[MacLean]

Sorry Mac, it was something I was taught by an Army Trauma surgeon on an advanced first aid course. In his experience the body copes quite well shutting down blood vessels around a single wound, as an automatic defence system. However two (or more) are more than the defence mechanism can deal with, so the shock effect is quadrupled.

I've seen guys hit with a single round that have not gone down, even with decent shot placement, but those I've seen hit with more than one round have gone down reasonably soon afterwards, so I think the Surgeon had a point.

Thanks - I'm all for hitting them more than once, as it makes sense to reduce blood pressure faster - just hadn't heard that figure before.

[dogbite1]

Approx 1 year ago, we had an officer involved shooting. The guy (referred to as asshole from here on out) came at the Deputy with a knife during a domestic situation (Go figure). Anyways, the asshole was sitting in his chair, pulled out a knife and came at the officers coming down a hallway. The first officer (we carry 9mm Sig P226's) already had his Taser out and fired but missed with 1 prong as 1 hit asshole in the chest and the other went between the legs and stuck in the chair. According to the cover officer the cover Deputy (28plus years from Pittsburgh and 3 officer involved shooting's himself also drew his weapon, but could not get a shot off due to the 1st deputy being in the way) said the primary deputy transitioned to his duty weapon as smooth as he ever saw, and fired 8-9 rounds into the chest of the asshole.

The primary deputy said to me when I spoke to him later, that he saw the asshole getting hit in the chest, but asshole just seemed to keep coming at him. The deputy could not tell how many times he pulled the trigger, but thought it was only 2- 3 max. What was interesting to me was what he said during the debrief. When he shot the asshole, the asshole did not seem to be reacting to being hit and just kept coming at him with drive and determination. The deputy kept thinking, SHIT, this 9mm is not working and he is going to get cut and have to go hands on with this asshole.

But he did say something that you hear alot about in training. Where he was looking at was where he was shooting and hitting the asshole, right in the center of the chest. As soon as he finished that thought, the asshole went down and died. It should also be noted that during this entire fight, the sites on the gun were NEVER utilized. It was just point and shoot on the move at the same time.

So does the 9mm do the job, yes! Might it take a little longer, possible. Also we carry Spear Gold Dot ammo with 147 grain. And the distance from the Asshole to Deputy was less than 8-12 feet.

Just passing on information from a recent incident that had relevance to this topic.

[compscotty]

if you shoot twice then it's twice as effective..

[jcsdscott]

Approx 1 year ago, we had an officer involved shooting. The guy (referred to as asshole from here on out) came at the Deputy with a knife during a domestic situation (Go figure). Anyways, the asshole was sitting in his chair, pulled out a knife and came at the officers coming down a hallway. The first officer (we carry 9mm Sig P226's) already had his Taser out and fired but missed with 1 prong as 1 hit asshole in the chest and the other went between the legs and stuck in the chair. According to the cover officer the cover Deputy (28plus years from Pittsburgh and 3 officer involved shooting's himself also drew his weapon, but could not get a shot off due to the 1st deputy being in the way) said the primary deputy transitioned to his duty weapon as smooth as he ever saw, and fired 8-9 rounds into the chest of the asshole.

The primary deputy said to me when I spoke to him later, that he saw the asshole getting hit in the chest, but asshole just seemed to keep coming at him. The deputy could not tell how many times he pulled the trigger, but thought it was only 2- 3 max. What was interesting to me was what he said during the debrief. When he shot the asshole, the asshole did not seem to be reacting to being hit and just kept coming at him with drive and determination. The deputy kept thinking, SHIT, this 9mm is not working and he is going to get cut and have to go hands on with this asshole.

But he did say something that you hear alot about in training. Where he was looking at was where he was shooting and hitting the asshole, right in the center of the chest. As soon as he finished that thought, the asshole went down and died. It should also be noted that during this entire fight, the sites on the gun were NEVER utilized. It was just point and shoot on the move at the same time.

So does the 9mm do the job, yes! Might it take a little longer, possible. Also we carry Spear Gold Dot ammo with 147 grain. And the distance from the Asshole to Deputy was less than 8-12 feet.

Just passing on information from a recent incident that had relevance to this topic.

Wow, I'll say that relevant to the topic!

[jcsdscott]

+1 What he said.....

Our agency is doing just that. We are transitioning to the .40 from the 9mm and... suprise, suprise... the folks who barely qualified with the 9mm are having trouble with the .40. So the fix is a lighter .40, which brings you to about the same ballistic value.

I personally do not like the .40 cal (personal preference). I would rather have a .45 or a .357 Sig, but it is what it is. I was hoping that the .45 GAP would catch on, it performs well but is pleasant to shoot and allows for a double stack mag that can still fit a small handed officer's grip.

My dept. is transitioning to the Glock 22 .40 cal., and it's a big change seeing as how most of us are split between 9mm and .45, with only a couple .40s. What I have learned is this, if your technique is sound the instrument will perform. I consider myself a novice in that before this job I had never even fired a handgun. I have worked with my 9mm and I am proficient. I have used another deputy's .45, and to my own surprise shot in the high 90s with it. I have yet to be placed in a situation where I need to know what ammo is best, however I pray that I will be prepared and technically sound to put the threat down if and when it happens.