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  1. #1
    StanSwitek's Avatar
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    People vs Raymey-hot pursuit into a res

    Since I cant find the thread that created all the sniping & thread locking (Its getting to be like O.com here) the other thread was locked, I'll post this regarding hot pursuit into a res without a warrant. People vs Raymey is the guiding decision. You can in fact chase a misdemeanor suspect into a home if these is exigent circumstances exist. For example a drunk driver. The exigent circs would be the distruction if evidence (alcohol in the blood) if you waited for a warrant. Anyway, here is the link. This is the law in California. http://www.oaklandnet.com/government...%20Warrant.pdf

  2. #2
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    Let's leave this alone for now. There is plenty of hilarious video footage we could all be watching instead of getting into another argument. Remember, we are all brothers and sisters in Law Enforcement here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan Switek
    Since I cant find the thread that created all the sniping & thread locking (Its getting to be like O.com here) the other thread was locked, I'll post this regarding hot pursuit into a res without a warrant. People vs Raymey is the guiding decision. You can in fact chase a misdemeanor suspect into a home if these is exigent circumstances exist. For example a drunk driver. The exigent circs would be the distruction if evidence (alcohol in the blood) if you waited for a warrant. Anyway, here is the link. This is the law in California. http://www.oaklandnet.com/government...%20Warrant.pdf
    You are in fact correct Stan. With all the drama I was trying to control, I never got to state all the facts.

    A Federal ruling was made, that allows law enforcement to enter into any home in fresh or hot pursuit of a suspect, whether the offense is a misdemeanor or felony.

    However, some state level circuit courts have made their own decisions as to what is acceptable in their state. So while the majority of states allow warrantless entry on fresh pursuit for any type of criminal offense, their are certain ruling in place in certain states, which set restrictions and guidlines on when the police in that state can do it.

    But as a rule, and in accordance with a federal judicial ruling, yes you can make an entry into a residence with fresh/hot pursuit whether it's a misdemeanor or felony.

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    Curt581 is offline Whatever
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    The thread that devolved into sniping and personal attacks was moved to this section, where it continued the down hill slide. It was subsequently locked to let things cool off. The thread was deleted because some of the posts were so inflammatory.

    Shortly after, other attempts were made to revive the arguments. Not good, at least, not before things had cooled off between warring factions.

    I think this is a great topic for discussion. I wish it could have been left in the "Ask a Cop" section. There are quite a few people that could have benefited from the differing points of view. As we all know, the Law is not something set in stone. Court rulings change. States have laws that differ.

    It's a shame that people have to be so 'positive' in their own arguments that they feel it necessary to resort to "sniping" and petty insults to make their case.

    Since Stan has posted a reasonable basis for reopening discussion, I'll leave this one open... for the time being. Stan's observation about O.com, while not entirely accurate, hit close enough to home that I'm willing to try a different approach.

    If anyone engages in personal attacks in this thread, the post will be deleted, and the poster will immediately take a temporary Ban. No further Warnings will be given.

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    Last edited by Curt581; 03-17-06 at 08:12 PM.

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    StanSwitek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lesta311
    Let's leave this alone for now. There is plenty of hilarious video footage we could all be watching instead of getting into another argument. Remember, we are all brothers and sisters in Law Enforcement here.
    Because we are all brothers I felt it was approprpriate to post some case law so everyone can be properly informed. Anything less makes this place like O.com.

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    I am in agreement that this thread should be moved to ask-a-cop. The member that originally started the thread could benefit from it as well as many other citizens could.

    As long as things can stay civil it will stay unlocked.
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    FishTail Guest
    Moved.

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    StanSwitek's Avatar
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    I dont see that it needs much more discussion. Using google, I found the case decision for my state in a few seconds. Everyone else can easily do the same.

    When I was an FTO, this was one of the areas I would quiz new officers. Few knew the answer. I the academy teaches this.. As a patrol sergeant, I would conduct training on this twice yearly. I would encourage everyone to read the actual case decision for warrantless entry into a home in your state.
    Last edited by StanSwitek; 03-18-06 at 10:07 AM.

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    Ken K is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan Switek
    I dont see that it needs much more discussion. Using google, I found the case decision for my state in a few seconds. Everyone else can easily do the same.

    When I was an FTO, this was one of the areas I would quiz new officers. Few knew the answer. I the academy teaches this.. As a patrol sergeant, I would conduct training on this twice yearly. I would encourage everyone to read the actual case decision for warrantless entry into a home in your state.
    Just did it and the cases in Iowa are pretty clear about "hot pursuit" and exigent circumstances.

    Found both Iowa Supreme Court and federal court cases just using "warrantless entry in Iowa." Yes you can and then again, sometimes you should just backoff and get a warrant. But in hot pursuit, if you have exigent circumstances about evidence or safety for the public or yourself, basically go for it.

    As several have said here, read your own state cases before getting into a discussion about the law in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken K
    Just did it and the cases in Iowa are pretty clear about "hot pursuit" and exigent circumstances.

    Found both Iowa Supreme Court and federal court cases just using "warrantless entry in Iowa." Yes you can and then again, sometimes you should just backoff and get a warrant. But in hot pursuit, if you have exigent circumstances about evidence or safety for the public or yourself, basically go for it.

    As several have said here, read your own state cases before getting into a discussion about the law in general.
    Agreed. If I am not mistaken Tapout are you trying to say that in fact your state does not allow for you all to enter a building during hot pursuit (aka fresk pursuit). If thats the case that sucks.
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  11. #11
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    I could see what tapout was saying could be policy but not law. I could be wrong though.
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    In Louisiana you can enter just about anywhere in "hot" pursuit. Military reservations do not qualify since it belong to the federal government unless you have an agreement for concurrent jurisdiction (I think I got that part correct).
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  13. #13
    tapout's Avatar
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    first off, thank you for posting the case law...

    second off, no, i was saying it was law, not policy...

    third off, the case law proved some of my points valid, and others were off (the law allows for more flexibility than i originally stated), but unless i missed something, according to the case law a fresh pursuit CAN be considered an exigent circumstance, but that doesnt mean that it is necesarily is. now, unfortunately i never used the words EXIGENT CIRCUMSTANCES in my posts, but i did say you could enter if you could articulate why you needed too. that part always seemed to get overlooked though. anyway, had i used exigent circumstances along with articulation, maybe the whole thing would have cleared up quicker for everyone. i was blanking on exigent circumstances, so i kept saying articulation.

    now, even according to this case law, a fresh or fresk pursuit can be an exigent circumstance, but that doesnt mean that it is. so if you cant articulate why you would follow into a residence, then you dont have an exigent circumstance, hence you cant follow into a residence.

    the scenario i posed...you get dispatched to a neighbor complaint. upon arrival, you observe one neighbor punch the other, a second degree assault or misdemeanor crime. you exit your vehicle, you chase him, he runs into his own house, locks his door...at this point this scenario falls under fresh pursuit.

    can you kick in his door and arrest him...no. its a misdemeanor crime, and according to this case law, there are no exigent circumstances, therfor you cant do it. thats as simple of a case as i was trying to make from the beginning.

    now apparently, the law allows a little more flexibilty under exigent circumstances than i was aware, however, a misdemeanor on its face is not enough without, ill say it again, exigent circumstances.

    i can now see where there was confusion on both sides.

    ill have you guys know i asked around some more, and apparently its such a broad issue that what it really boils down to is the judge assigned to the case. if the judge believes you had reason to enter, youll be good to go, if the judge believes exigent circumstances did not exist, fresh pursuit or not, your case is out the door.

    one of my coworkers said he had a case a few years ago where a woman slapped him in the face in her front lawn, then ran into her house and locked the door. he chased her, kicked in the door and arrested her. the judge (i should add a notorious liberal) tossed the case quoting "its not starsky and hutch out there officer, next time follow the rules and get a warrant."

    i should also say i heard numerous stories of people who broke down the door with less to go on and never had a problem.

    so as with all laws, its up for interpretation, and is not quite as cut and dry as i may have made it seem.

    also, this case is cali, im want to go pull the case law for MD and see what i can come up with.
    Last edited by tapout; 03-19-06 at 06:18 PM.

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    Hot pursuit of misdemeanor offender into residence...found in a brief called law enforcement legal update, updated 1/16/06

    if an officer has probable cause to believe that a person has committed DUI or another serious crime with alcohol influence as element of crime, and the person tries to flee into a home, the officer has the authority to forcibly enter the home and make an arrest...State vs Griffith...noting the special exigency of likely lost evidence ie dissipation of alcohol-if the officer has to wait to get a search warrant...i didnt know this until stan posted the california case law and i got a chance to dig a little deeper.

    however, where there is no articuable exigency, then it is much more difficult to argue that forcible, warrantless entry is permitted to force entry to carry out the probable cause arrest of one who committed any other misdemeanor.


    see also state v bessette which holds that an officer in hot pursuit of a misdemeanor suspect did not have exigent circumstances to justify non consenting, warrantless entry of 3rd party's residence to arrest the suspect.
    Last edited by tapout; 03-19-06 at 07:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tapout
    the scenario i posed...you get dispatched to a neighbor complaint. upon arrival, you observe one neighbor punch the other, a second degree assault or misdemeanor crime. you exit your vehicle, you chase him, he runs into his own house, locks his door...at this point this scenario falls under fresh pursuit.

    can you kick in his door and arrest him...no.


    ill have you guys know i asked around some more, and apparently its such a broad issue that what it really boils down to is the judge assigned to the case.
    I disagree with the above statements. To me, their is nothing broad about it. I also disagree with saying you cannot enter the residence in the above scenario. I don't see how that is confusing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terminator
    I disagree with the above statements. To me, their is nothing broad about it. I also disagree with saying you cannot enter the residence in the above scenario. I don't see how that is confusing.

    that is your right...you may disagree, but im saying you are wrong...which happens to be my right, and its in the case law. maybe not in NC, i wouldnt know

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    A punch in the face is battery and a misdemeanor commited in the officers presence....you are all set to forcibly enter the residence for the arrest....sorry Tapout but if your agency does not allow that I feel bad for you but you would be good to go with the high court...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PACMAN
    A punch in the face is battery and a misdemeanor commited in the officers presence....you are all set to forcibly enter the residence for the arrest....sorry Tapout but if your agency does not allow that I feel bad for you but you would be good to go with the high court...

    its not my agency, its in the case law. the case has to make it to the high court for it to be reviewed. if it doesnt get prosecuted at the state level, its over. we cant appeal like the criminals can. listen, im not making this stuff up, whether its just MD law, or con law, i cant say. apparently, it seems to be MD law, and a few other states. my agency is nationally accreditted and one of the top 25 largest in the country. were not behind on the times. though we do live in a very liberal state.

    each situation is obviously interpretted differently. we dont have battery in MD, its just a 2nd degree assault. and no, we wouldnt be justified in forcibly entering a dwelling to make an arrest for it in that situation. no exigent circumstances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tapout
    its not my agency, its in the case law. the case has to make it to the high court for it to be reviewed. if it doesnt get prosecuted at the state level, its over. we cant appeal like the criminals can. listen, im not making this stuff up, whether its just MD law, or con law, i cant say. apparently, it seems to be MD law, and a few other states. my agency is nationally accreditted and one of the top 25 largest in the country. were not behind on the times. though we do live in a very liberal state.

    each situation is obviously interpretted differently. we dont have battery in MD, its just a 2nd degree assault. and no, we wouldnt be justified in forcibly entering a dwelling to make an arrest for it in that situation. no exigent circumstances.
    Post the case law man. Back up your statements. Reason we are saying this is Stan has posted the Case Law that tells you exactly what we have all been saying for the past few days now. Bring the proof to the table,not just words and opinions.
    Being the best is not what always counts. What counts is always trying your best.

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    tapout's sources are, from his posts, Law Enforcement Legal Update (01/16/06) and State V. Bessette.

    Where is the articulable exigence in the neighbor scenario? So he hits him in the face and runs in the house? What evidence is he going to destroy? Can you articulate from his misdemeanor assault that he is a danger to the parties in his own home? I'm starting to see tapout's point here. A court is going to ask why you NEEDED to arrest him right then, at the expense of entering a PRIVATE dwelling without permission.

    Sorry guys, I'm a big believer in citizen's constitutional rights. Forced entry into a home is a dicey affair. I would be all for setting up a perimieter and getting a warrant. Hell, ask yourself if a slap in the face is worth pooling the manpower of enough cops to sit on a house while waiting for a warrant, provided the time of day makes it feasible...maybe just enter it and come back later. Shitheads will eventually get picked up.
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