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  1. #21
    Kymmie2453 is offline CJ Student
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    Thanks you all so much for your input! Just in case ya'll are curious about how I use the AWESOME insight I am getting from your posts, here's what I am working on based on this thread.


    High-speed police chases always present public-safety issues. When a high-speed pursuit is in progress, law enforcement officials have to continuously reevaluate whether or not it should continue, especially if the general public is at risk. When someone is injured, the courts must them decide to what degree a law enforcement officer is liable for causing an accident during a high-speed pursuit. Over the years, the courts have grappled with what the standard ought to be for deciding if a high speed chase is dangerous enough to hold police officers liable for violating our constitutional due process rights associated with injuries suffered through such high speed chases. The issue is incredibly significant from a policy point of view considering the fact that if the standard for constitutional liability is extremely high, then police officers may seldom be found liable. If the standard is too low, police officers may be found too responsible, which will result in stricter no chase policies and fewer apprehensions of criminals. “Currently the standard is conduct that shocks the conscience which is defined by conduct that is deliberately intended to injure, in some way unjustifiable by any government interest (O’Neill, 2009)
    In the case of Timothy Scott v. Victor Harris, 2007, the Supreme Court ruling gave significant protection to law enforcement officers who have injured citizens as a result of high-speed chases. “The justices ruled 8-1 against Georgia teenager Victor Harris, who was left a quadriplegic after a police vehicle rammed his car off the road in 2001 (Mears, 2007).” Harris was driving on a suspended license. In the case of Tennessee v. Gardner, 1985, the Supreme Court held the “such force [deadly] may not be used unless it is necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others” and when the suspect “threatens the officer with a weapon or there is probable cause to believe that he has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm (Tennessee v. Gardner, 1985).”
    In this particular case, law enforcement officials were in pursuit of an alleged murderer, wanted in two separate states for at least ten separate murders. The suspect was armed and had already shot one police officer during this pursuit. While it is unfortunate that innocent citizens were killed during this pursuit, I believe the officers involved in this chase made the appropriate decision and abided by all legislative statutes including the fleeing felon rule.
    Running from an officer is an unlawful act just like selling narcotics or burglary. No pursuit policies are an un-lawful order restricting law enforcement officers from enforcing the law which the legislative branch deemed essential to enact so as to preserve the peace. Naturally officers are accountable for their conduct in the course of these pursuits and they should not try to be super-heroes nevertheless, they are not accountable for the conduct of the offenders. Instead of hand cuffing officers attempting to do their jobs, government authorities need to place the burden of fault and liability on the criminals involved in the pursuits. Criminal sanctions for fleeing needs to be so strict that only violent felons would risk this behavior. It's time to stop blaming law enforcement officials and blame the criminals.

    References
    Mears, B. (2007, April 30). Court: High-speed chase suspects can't sue police - CNN. Retrieved from http://articles.cnn.com/2007-04-30/j...-car?_s=PM:LAW
    O'Neill. ESQ., L. (2009, June 30). Legality of High Speed Police Chases. Retrieved from Legality of High Speed Police Chases | Lawinfo Weblog
    Tennessee v. Gardner,(1985). 471 U. S. 1:Volume 471: Full Text.US Supreme Court Cases from Justia & Oyez. Retrieved from TENNESSEE V. GARNER, 471 U. S. 1 :: Volume 471 :: 1985 :: Full Text :: US Supreme Court Cases from Justia & Oyez
    It's not how you die that makes you a hero, it's how you live!

  2. #22
    Kymmie2453 is offline CJ Student
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    Quote Originally Posted by dadyswat View Post
    I asked myself many times if it was worth it and have just never found an answer.
    The value of a human life can never be measured. I hope you can find some peace in knowing that you were performing your job to the best of your ability and that it was not your fault.
    It's not how you die that makes you a hero, it's how you live!

  3. #23
    Kymmie2453 is offline CJ Student
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motorwaycop View Post
    My force is currently trying to recover the costs of damage to the patrol car i was in when I rammed a man wanted for rape in order to stop him from fleeing in his car.
    It seems so backward that the department is "recovering the costs". Why isn't the jackwagon rapist responsible for the damages. He would be if he had hit a civilian vehicle. You "rammed" him n the line of duty, that should be enough to make him responsible. I'm beginning to understand why some cops are so irritable! lol
    It's not how you die that makes you a hero, it's how you live!

  4. #24
    JohnSmith is offline Officer First Class
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    If I made policy, mine would read the PIT maneuver shall be performed as immediately as possible.

    Most pursuits end in the suspect crashing. Why let them dictate when, where, and how this happens? Let's do it on our terms. We pick the speed, we pick where, we pick when, and we pick how. We're trained to do this as safely, quickly, and effectively as possible.

    But I don't make policy, I follow it.

  5. #25
    berserk is offline The reason they do psych evals
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnSmith View Post
    If I made policy, mine would read the PIT maneuver shall be performed as immediately as possible.

    Most pursuits end in the suspect crashing. Why let them dictate when, where, and how this happens? Let's do it on our terms. We pick the speed, we pick where, we pick when, and we pick how. We're trained to do this as safely, quickly, and effectively as possible.

    But I don't make policy, I follow it.
    It's a shame that more people who make policy don't get that.

  6. #26
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    In Scott v. Harris, the United States Supreme Court recognized a principle I have advanced since I was issued my first flintlock sidearm and horse. They cannot and will not hurt anyone if they are not allowed to run!

    On the third day, God created the PIT maneuver. It will end chases. If your department disagrees, are they concerned about lawsuits or the price of Bondo?

    Read the opinion at http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/06pdf/05-1631.pdf.

    Go to Blue Line Lawyer for my series Lawsuits Against LEOs.

  7. #27
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    121Traffic is offline Just Us
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    This is more anecdotal than anything but it's a stark illustration of the results of overly-restrictive pursuit policies. My PD, along with most surrounding metro agencies) has a very restrictive one...only for violent felonies, and we don't have PIT training. The shitheads are catching on to this since it became the norm years ago. We do in fact have stop sticks in every car, but recently the admin has been toying with the idea that we can't use those either unless a full on pursuit is authorized. Not even to terminate a failure to yield before it becomes a pursuit.

    Two nights ago, one of our swings cars turns around on a reckless driver. He lights him up, the guy initially fails to yield right away. Our cop is bleeping the siren, and it initially looks like the guy is just looking for a safe spot to stop. As soon as he gooses it up to 75 in a 45 though, my buddy calls it off on the air, and advises he'll be turning around as soon as he can because that's what policy requires...no more "following at a distance." If you ever get hemmed up on that once, you make damn sure the next time that the Watch Cmdr. hears you saying that on the air the next time. Well, the stretch of road he's on has a concrete median on the left, and no turn offs on the right for a good half mile. There's no turning around right then, but he kills his lights and slows to 25 in a 45, so the motorists behind him can see that he's no longer attempting a stop. The suspect slows from 60+ to a crawl in order to get my buddy closer. He starts driving up onto the median, then back into the lanes, up onto the (empty) sidewalk, all the while flipping my buddy off out the window. As my buddy gets closer, he gooses it back to 70 to create some distance, then starts the shit again. My buddy is forced to watch this, looking like an impotent idiot in front of the public until he's able to turn around at a cutout in the median. Meanwhile, they're all calling in complaining how the cops did nothing to stop this guy.

    The Massachusetts plates list to a rental company. A QQ of the plate shows another metro jurisdiction cleared the plate a couple days ago. Talk to that officer, and it turns out the car is associated with one of their local nutjobs. Guys hates the police, is crazy, is known to fight with LE, and carries multiple swords on him. Our guy can't positively ID the driver though, so it's all speculation as to who the driver actually was, but we all reasonably know it was the crazy guy.

    Man, I sure am glad my pursuit policy saved my buddy from having to apprehend that guy after a pursuit, and he is still walking the streets as a free and empowered criminal! I mean, what's a little reckless driving and the felonious (property) damage to our city landscaping?
    "If anything worthwhile comes of this tragedy, it should be the realization by every citizen that often the only thing that stands between them and losing everything they hold dear... is the man wearing a badge." -- Ronald Reagan, in the wake of the deaths of 4 CHP troopers in the Newhall Incident, 1970

    The opinions given in my posts DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "121Traffic" on O/R.

  8. #28
    Jks9199 is offline The Reason People Hate Cops & Causer of War
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    Great object lesson there, 121. Maybe someone needs to drop a hint to the local press about why the cops were ignoring this outrageous behavior...
    Voting against incumbents until we get a Congress that does its job.

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    All opinions expressed are my own and are not official statements of my employer.

  9. #29
    ex401mp's Avatar
    ex401mp is offline Was betrachten Sie?
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    Our chase policy is so well known now, I am actually shocked that anyone actually pulls over when we try stop them. A newborn baby girl has more balls than our administration....
    Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I.
    One died for your soul, the other for your freedom. ~ Anon

    si hic carrus commovet non quaerete

    RIP Scott L. Roth- Pfc 1st Platoon,401st MP Co, KIA 12/20/89- Operation Just Cause- Not forgotten.
    ALWAYS FIRST!!!

  10. #30
    McCrackhd's Avatar
    McCrackhd is offline Master Officer
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    MPD's chase policy is pretty liberal. Discretion is left up to the officer and the supervisor. As a matter of fact, yesterday we had a chase for a snatch and grab in which the Chief actually got on the radio and overruled the supervisor to allow the chase to continue. Have to admit that I was shocked. BTW: speeds were 80-90 MPH on city streets during daytime. Chief eventually canceled the chase when speeds continued to get higher, which was understandable, considering that it was a misdemeanor.

  11. #31
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    armsmaster270 is offline Ret. Sac. P.D. - 270th M.P. Co., Now with D.H.S.
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    I am all for stiffer penalties for fleeing but the rub is if you can't chase them, you will not catch them, thus no penalty. That is unless you can prove who was driving.


    Pretty women make us BUY beer. Ugly women make us DRINK beer. --Al Bundy

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  12. #32
    ls1ssws6's Avatar
    ls1ssws6 is offline Officer First Class
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiphos View Post
    Chases are necessary to catch criminals. In jurisdictions with "no chase" policies the criminals run and know they won't get caught. We need to introduce severe penalties for running. The criminal is placing public safety at risk and should be hammered in courts. Add on a huge mandatory prison sentence that is worse than whatever they could be running from to give them incentive to stop.
    Quote Originally Posted by Five-0 View Post
    THIS!!!
    DITTTO!!!!

    I hate the fact we have a no pursuit policy unless a forcible felony occured which i think is stupid cause criminals know this and go flying off for every little thing,putting civilians at jeopardy.

  13. #33
    Xiphos's Avatar
    Xiphos is online now I Void Warranties
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    I'll add civil protection for involved officers to limit lawsuits. Nobody really blames cops, but everyone knows the deeper pockets are with the government. Remove the incentive to sue because we are doing our damn jobs.
    Pleasing nobody, one person at a time.

    That which does not kill me, better start fucking running.

    If I lived every day like it was my last, the body count would be staggering.

    I intend to go in harm's way. -John Paul Jones

    Hunt the wolf, and bring light to the dark places that others fear to go. LT COL Dave Grossman

  14. #34
    ex401mp's Avatar
    ex401mp is offline Was betrachten Sie?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiphos View Post
    Remove the incentive to sue because we are doing our damn jobs.
    This is something that I totally agree with. There should be a point in time when people realize that it is the responsibilty of the person being chased to stop. If that person does not stop, it should be understood that this person should OWN everything that goes wrong during the chase. It is a simple fix for that bad guy to avoid any liability- just freakin stop your car.
    Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I.
    One died for your soul, the other for your freedom. ~ Anon

    si hic carrus commovet non quaerete

    RIP Scott L. Roth- Pfc 1st Platoon,401st MP Co, KIA 12/20/89- Operation Just Cause- Not forgotten.
    ALWAYS FIRST!!!

  15. #35
    Captain America's Avatar
    Captain America is offline Reed and Malloy were my FTOs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiphos View Post
    I'll add civil protection for involved officers to limit lawsuits. Nobody really blames cops, but everyone knows the deeper pockets are with the government. Remove the incentive to sue because we are doing our damn jobs.
    Quote Originally Posted by ex401mp View Post
    This is something that I totally agree with. There should be a point in time when people realize that it is the responsibilty of the person being chased to stop. If that person does not stop, it should be understood that this person should OWN everything that goes wrong during the chase. It is a simple fix for that bad guy to avoid any liability- just freakin stop your car.

    Makes sense therefore it will never happen. Too many lawyers would stand to lose too much money in settlements and suit awards from the municipal , state and federal governments.
    SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM

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    -Ex-Sheriff Martin Howe to Will Kane in "High Noon"

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