I am currently in a 12 week Law Enforcement Academy program, and I am looking for advice on where I can read through scenarios and get a good handle on how to deal with non-use of force and use of force scenarios.
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I am currently in a 12 week Law Enforcement Academy program, and I am looking for advice on where I can read through scenarios and get a good handle on how to deal with non-use of force and use of force scenarios.
For those of you worried thridwatch's motives, I know for a fact that he is currently going through the academy. He went on a ride-along with me last week, and I told him that this was a good place to get honest answers. So, hopefully, we'll see some good responses.
I think here would be a good place to start for the use of force type stuff. The FBI actually interviews officers and attackers of officer involved shootings and assualts.
http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2008...er/leoka101408
The most recent data available for scenarios where officers were attacked and attacked and killed:
FBI — LEOKA 2008
More years available here as well as a plethora of other data:
FBI — Uniform Crime Reports
Now that I am home edited to add:
I bring these studies up to show another dynamic of when officers should have used force and didn't. I doubt academies have changed much since I went through, but most new officers are more concerned about getting sued or in trouble than getting hurt doing this job. Some of the case studies and interviews you can go through in these collections will illustrate to you what people that assaulted or killed cops were thinking. Big pet peeve of mine is seeing officers getting sized up and they either don't react to it or don't realize it is happening.
Thrid...
What exactl are you looking for? You will get more out of discussion here than you will get on the web.
Thrid, Ask away... I'm sure we will provide a wide range of confusion... :) just kidding we are here to help
An example is dealing with an uncooperative individual with their hands in their pockets refusing to take them out, I was wondering how to handle it because I know HANDS KILL!! Should I yell Stop or I will Tase you and they keep walking towards me, or do I tackle the threat to the ground and attempt to restrain them?
I would say you are justified in lighting him up with the Taser. Maybe it's just me, but I'm not gonna tackle anyone!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thridwatch
We don't have a taser. In my circumstance the person gets OCed with my weak hand. It would also help if you provided the circumstances you are dealing with the person. I don't just walk up to people and for no reason say show me your hands. Why are you contacting him? The totality of the circumstances plays a very large roll in our response to the same individual.
Its middle of the day and it's a suspcious person call. You attempt to make contact and Identify that yourself and the reason for your contact and He just walks towards you and intentionaly ignoring you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Five-0
Expand on what you're having trouble with. Are you trying to understand when what level of force is appropriate? Are you looking to read a scenario kind of like a puzzle, and describe your reaction, or are you looking for scenarios that outline the reasoning/thought process for you. In other words, are you looking for "What would you do if..." or "When the suspect grabbed at Officer X, Officer X punched him the face because..."Quote:
Originally Posted by Thridwatch
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXXzvpnkvm0"]YouTube - Las Vegas Take Down[/ame]
thrid - can you tell me why this guy was taken down?
now, after you think (and answer that one)
take the reason for the call out of it - treat the call as a suspicious person call...
would/should the officer react the same?
feel free to PM the answer to the second one - no need to blast possible answers that may show up in your academy all over the internet :)
then after a little while - I"m sure some of the salty ones on here will be happy to chime in on why this knuckle head was shown the pavement with swift resolve
(i love this clip btw)
I wouldnt go to hands like that. he had his hands concealed. it turned out to be a great take down, but notice how his hands came out as he fell backwards. the officer was not in a position to see if a hyperdermic needle or other sharp object could have come out and his body weight land on it.
go with hands when you see his hands. if you dont see his, go the next step higher. OC, tazer... if its a gun run, break leather baby...
Some things shown on reality cop shows, tend to show the officer over act his part. I have seen plenty of unsafe moves when the camera starts rolling. That COPS program never shows a cop getting his ass whipped by the 90 pound crack head all amped up and many on here will attest that it happens from time to time.
You arent the perps pin cushion. If you are alone, one on one, call for an additional. give yourself plenty of room between you and the subject. when help arrives, split his attention and see if he might want to cooperate. If not, at a minimum you have a discon summons. Give your instructions.. ie Let me see some ID, put your hands on the car, what are you doing here.. etc. If he doesnt comply with your instructions, go to the next level of what your department teaches. OC, Baton, Taser..
He will comply... eventually. The object of this job is that we try to achieve our goal. To go home safely.
It was an excellent take down, however I don't think my department's policy would cover that as justified. We are very restrictive when it comes to a subject's neck. Pretty much, our hands on their neck is deadly force. The hands on decision is clearly justified, just the methods might not go inline with our policies.
Also, our policy wouldn't justify OC or a Taser, as he is not actively resisting. There's been some argument over this recently, as passive resistance can be much more dangerous, but as my policy is written now, neither would be justified.
Is our policy much more restrictive than your department's?
In my department, we would be justified in using the taser in this instance. Obviously there has to be reasonable suspicion to stop the person. I can't just walk up to Joe Blow on the street and tell him to take his hands out of his pockets, and then zap him if he doesn't! I agree that was a good takedown, but I think I'd have a problem justifying grabbing the guys throat, throwing him to the ground and kneeling on his head.
Not really... All departments want to be able to indemnify the officer, so most departments spell out the do's and dont's. The take down was great in the sense he got him to comply, but like I mentioned I think he ratched up his use of force for the camera's sake. The presence of a camera usually changes the mode and attitude of an officer, looking for his YouTube moment. I didnt like his knee on his neck either. If this was played on the evening news, the officer would be modified immediately (gun and shield removed) and placed on desk assignment. The perp would have to choose from the hundreds of lawyers calling him, and the officer will have to articulate the threat that warranted a choke throat, that resulted in the perps head hitting the ground and a knee to the neck. Cops in NYC have been fired from the job for much less, and based on an accusation where no video was presented.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSmith
Again.. Our object to going to work, is getting back home safely.
In NYC, we would split his attention, throw him a few clear commands, a jab with the PR24 and if need be, escalate according to the perps actions. WE are going home to our families here fellas.. All of us. You, your partner, your back up team, your supervisor, and so... he will comply and we will do it in a professional manner. Anything less, someone is getting hurt. 8 pair of hands on the perp will get him under control. If he stuggles, resists, then that better be detailed completely on your report to explain any injuries he takes. The quicker the officer gets him undercontrol, the less problems later. Today, I encounter too many cops who are afraid of being sued, and as a result, they are afraid of putting hands on a perp. When I was a rookie, we were trained to fight dirty. Never a one on one fight. You call for the troops, and everyone got a shot in. If you werent going to knuckle down, then dont come to the party. When he was cuffed, it was over.. no cheap shots. If my perp was cuffed, and another cop took a cheap shot, then that cop just took over the collar, it wasnt mine, and I didnt want my name on the paperwork. Obviously, that cop had bigger problems with the rest of the squad awaiting back at the house.
Not anymore... Now a cop has to have equal or worse injuries than the perp in order to avoid department charges, and assault charges from the DA. Cameras are everywhere.
In this video, if the only resistance is that he doesnt take his hands out of his pockets, my partner and I would split his attention, each of us grab an arm and forcibly take them out and get him down on the ground, then cuff. Done. No jimmy fly snooka moves. No elbows, judo chops, or choke slaps. But, we are all going home safely. The perp's actions dictate what pain he feels. He will comply. We will make sure of that.
I completely agree, and that is exactly what we would have done as well. Move in, each grab an arm. I will say this, we would have gone hands on sooner than he did, but much less aggressively, and with two of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dustoff262
My opinion as an officer: I think I'd have gone with baton strikes or pepper spray in that case. Wouldn't have gone after the neck like that, too much risk of permanent injury for the circumstances.
My opinion as a private citizen: fucker had that coming. Next time, take your hands out of your pockets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thridwatch
Its ironic I am reading this question now. Recently, I was working an overtime shift and got dispatched to a call of a disturbance/possible domestic in the garage of a residence. Ther reporting party could only hear it and could not provide any further details. Upon arrival I saw two males and female talking on the sidewalk just north of the target address. My partner and I approached the residence and knocked at the door. We could not hear any disturbance going on. I ended up speaking with a female who was wrangling two toddlers. She advised that her husband and his friends got into an arguement in the garage and that the friends had left. I asked to speak with her husband. She stated he had left as well. I asked her if she could describe what her husband was wearing. She told me he was wearing a green t-shirt and shorts. I asked her if her husband was one of the men talking on the sidewalk north of her residence. She looked outside and said yep that's him. She told me his name was "John".
My partner and I wanted to speak with John so as to determine what had gone on and to ensure there would be no further disturburances. I called over to him and he pointed at himself as said," I am not John, I am Dave. I said okay Dave will you come over and talk to me for a minute. So Dave came over and denied living at the address in question and stated that "John" had left walking north.
I asked him if he had any ID on him, he said ,"no, explitive, explitive...At this point "Dave" had walked within about 6 feet of me. He then shoved his hands into his pockets. I asked "Dave" to take his hands out of his pockets. He said,"explitive, explitive, explitive...NO!" I then ordered him to take his hands out of his pockets. With essentially the same reply from him.
I then quickly moved to his 2 1/2 and grabbed a hold of his arm with both of my hands. My partner did the same on the other side. The brainiac then shouted he had a gun. This resulted in knee strikes and the beginning of a takedown. My partner finding himself committed to being hands on as well as me. I started to complete a straight arm bar take down, with near success, but my partner was like the rag doll on the end of a rope, thus eliminating the momentum. My partner lost his grip on Mr Brainiac. As I turned with him. My partner deployed his Taser which had the desired effect.
Mr Brainiac was arrested and charged with Obstructing a Peace Officer and Menacing(Felony).
This story has been modified slightly, ever so slightly.
Keep in mind that Police work is rarely "black and white" its all gray. There are many factors that can come into play in the decision making process. I am absolutely certain this incident can be picked apart to find a multitude of different approaches/reactions
Code6, what do you think of the above posted video. By the way, great job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dustoff262
The move in the video was obviously effective, I wonder if a specific PPCT type technique was intended. I think utilizing the cover Officer more would have been a safer choice.