Welcome to the APBWeb.
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21

Thread: Scenarios

  1. #1
    Thirdwatch's Avatar
    Thirdwatch is offline Guardian between peace and peril
    Supporting Member Lvl 3
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    10-09-10
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    71
    Rep Power
    127805

    Scenarios

    I am currently in a 12 week Law Enforcement Academy program, and I am looking for advice on where I can read through scenarios and get a good handle on how to deal with non-use of force and use of force scenarios.

  2. #2
    keith720's Avatar
    keith720 is offline Finely Aged
    Premium Lifetime Member
    Verified LEO
    Site Moderator
    Join Date
    01-06-06
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    5,364
    Rep Power
    5488745
    For those of you worried thridwatch's motives, I know for a fact that he is currently going through the academy. He went on a ride-along with me last week, and I told him that this was a good place to get honest answers. So, hopefully, we'll see some good responses.
    For the morning will come. Brightly will it shine on the brave and true, kindly upon all who suffer for the cause, glorious upon the tombs of heroes. Thus will shine the dawn.

    Winston Churchill

  3. #3
    Five-0's Avatar
    Five-0 is offline Super Moderator
    Premium Lifetime Member
    Verified LEO
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    05-15-06
    Posts
    10,982
    Rep Power
    8357018
    I think here would be a good place to start for the use of force type stuff. The FBI actually interviews officers and attackers of officer involved shootings and assualts.

    http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2008...er/leoka101408

    The most recent data available for scenarios where officers were attacked and attacked and killed:

    FBI — LEOKA 2008

    More years available here as well as a plethora of other data:

    FBI — Uniform Crime Reports

    Now that I am home edited to add:

    I bring these studies up to show another dynamic of when officers should have used force and didn't. I doubt academies have changed much since I went through, but most new officers are more concerned about getting sued or in trouble than getting hurt doing this job. Some of the case studies and interviews you can go through in these collections will illustrate to you what people that assaulted or killed cops were thinking. Big pet peeve of mine is seeing officers getting sized up and they either don't react to it or don't realize it is happening.

    Meanwhile, fishing in Russia:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." -- Frederic Bastiat

    "Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter." Ernest Hemingway

    The opinions given in my signatures & threads DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "Five-0" on Officerresource.com

  4. #4
    SteelCityK9Cop's Avatar
    SteelCityK9Cop is offline Officer First Class
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    09-05-10
    Location
    Pittsburgh, Pa.
    Posts
    112
    Rep Power
    114808
    Thrid...

    What exactl are you looking for? You will get more out of discussion here than you will get on the web.

  5. #5
    incustody1015's Avatar
    incustody1015 is offline Sergeant
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    05-26-10
    Location
    South Florida
    Posts
    164
    Rep Power
    182532
    Thrid, Ask away... I'm sure we will provide a wide range of confusion... just kidding we are here to help
    INCUSTODY1015

    "You know what makes me sad.... YOU DO!!! MAYBE WE SHOULD CHUG ON OVER TO MAMBE PAMBE LAND WHERE MAYBE WE COULD FIND SOME SELF-CONFIDENCE FOR YOU, YOU JACK WAGON" R. Lee Ermy (geico commercial)

    Disclaimer: The opinions given in my signatures DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are MY PERSONAL OPINIONS and I accept sole responsibility as such.

  6. #6
    Thirdwatch's Avatar
    Thirdwatch is offline Guardian between peace and peril
    Supporting Member Lvl 3
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    10-09-10
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    71
    Rep Power
    127805
    An example is dealing with an uncooperative individual with their hands in their pockets refusing to take them out, I was wondering how to handle it because I know HANDS KILL!! Should I yell Stop or I will Tase you and they keep walking towards me, or do I tackle the threat to the ground and attempt to restrain them?

  7. #7
    keith720's Avatar
    keith720 is offline Finely Aged
    Premium Lifetime Member
    Verified LEO
    Site Moderator
    Join Date
    01-06-06
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    5,364
    Rep Power
    5488745
    I would say you are justified in lighting him up with the Taser. Maybe it's just me, but I'm not gonna tackle anyone!
    For the morning will come. Brightly will it shine on the brave and true, kindly upon all who suffer for the cause, glorious upon the tombs of heroes. Thus will shine the dawn.

    Winston Churchill

  8. #8
    Five-0's Avatar
    Five-0 is offline Super Moderator
    Premium Lifetime Member
    Verified LEO
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    05-15-06
    Posts
    10,982
    Rep Power
    8357018
    Quote Originally Posted by Thridwatch View Post
    An example is dealing with an uncooperative individual with their hands in their pockets refusing to take them out, I was wondering how to handle it because I know HANDS KILL!! Should I yell Stop or I will Tase you and they keep walking towards me, or do I tackle the threat to the ground and attempt to restrain them?

    We don't have a taser. In my circumstance the person gets OCed with my weak hand. It would also help if you provided the circumstances you are dealing with the person. I don't just walk up to people and for no reason say show me your hands. Why are you contacting him? The totality of the circumstances plays a very large roll in our response to the same individual.

    Meanwhile, fishing in Russia:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." -- Frederic Bastiat

    "Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter." Ernest Hemingway

    The opinions given in my signatures & threads DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "Five-0" on Officerresource.com

  9. #9
    Thirdwatch's Avatar
    Thirdwatch is offline Guardian between peace and peril
    Supporting Member Lvl 3
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    10-09-10
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    71
    Rep Power
    127805
    Quote Originally Posted by Five-0 View Post
    We don't have a taser. In my circumstance the person gets OCed with my weak hand. It would also help if you provided the circumstances you are dealing with the person. I don't just walk up to people and for no reason say show me your hands. Why are you contacting him? The totality of the circumstances plays a very large roll in our response to the same individual.
    Its middle of the day and it's a suspcious person call. You attempt to make contact and Identify that yourself and the reason for your contact and He just walks towards you and intentionaly ignoring you.

  10. #10
    Jks9199 is offline The Reason People Hate Cops & Causer of War
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    04-16-06
    Location
    Northern VA
    Posts
    4,121
    Rep Power
    6563842
    Quote Originally Posted by Thridwatch View Post
    I am currently in a 12 week Law Enforcement Academy program, and I am looking for advice on where I can read through scenarios and get a good handle on how to deal with non-use of force and use of force scenarios.
    Expand on what you're having trouble with. Are you trying to understand when what level of force is appropriate? Are you looking to read a scenario kind of like a puzzle, and describe your reaction, or are you looking for scenarios that outline the reasoning/thought process for you. In other words, are you looking for "What would you do if..." or "When the suspect grabbed at Officer X, Officer X punched him the face because..."
    Voting against incumbents until we get a Congress that does its job.

    TASER: almost as good as alcohol for teaching white boys to dance

    "Don't suffer from PTSD -- Go out and cause it!"
    -- Col. David Grossman, US Army, ret.

    All opinions expressed are my own and are not official statements of my employer.

  11. #11
    Twan007's Avatar
    Twan007 is offline The People
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    02-14-07
    Location
    Baton Rouge, Louisiana
    Posts
    1,403
    Rep Power
    821463
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXXzvpnkvm0"]YouTube - Las Vegas Take Down[/ame]

    thrid - can you tell me why this guy was taken down?


    now, after you think (and answer that one)

    take the reason for the call out of it - treat the call as a suspicious person call...

    would/should the officer react the same?

    feel free to PM the answer to the second one - no need to blast possible answers that may show up in your academy all over the internet

    then after a little while - I"m sure some of the salty ones on here will be happy to chime in on why this knuckle head was shown the pavement with swift resolve

    (i love this clip btw)
    -=Twan007


    Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.

    Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious.





    The opinions expressed by this poster are wholly his own, and should never be construed to even remotely be in alignment with his employer. Matter of fact, the poster will deny any knowledge of any post... this message will self-destruct in 5 seconds...

  12. #12
    Dustoff262's Avatar
    Dustoff262 is offline Retirement date: December 29, 2019
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    06-07-08
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    301
    Rep Power
    151877
    I wouldnt go to hands like that. he had his hands concealed. it turned out to be a great take down, but notice how his hands came out as he fell backwards. the officer was not in a position to see if a hyperdermic needle or other sharp object could have come out and his body weight land on it.

    go with hands when you see his hands. if you dont see his, go the next step higher. OC, tazer... if its a gun run, break leather baby...

    Some things shown on reality cop shows, tend to show the officer over act his part. I have seen plenty of unsafe moves when the camera starts rolling. That COPS program never shows a cop getting his ass whipped by the 90 pound crack head all amped up and many on here will attest that it happens from time to time.

    You arent the perps pin cushion. If you are alone, one on one, call for an additional. give yourself plenty of room between you and the subject. when help arrives, split his attention and see if he might want to cooperate. If not, at a minimum you have a discon summons. Give your instructions.. ie Let me see some ID, put your hands on the car, what are you doing here.. etc. If he doesnt comply with your instructions, go to the next level of what your department teaches. OC, Baton, Taser..

    He will comply... eventually. The object of this job is that we try to achieve our goal. To go home safely.
    "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." -- George Orwell

  13. #13
    JohnSmith is offline Officer First Class
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    09-03-09
    Posts
    153
    Rep Power
    314933
    It was an excellent take down, however I don't think my department's policy would cover that as justified. We are very restrictive when it comes to a subject's neck. Pretty much, our hands on their neck is deadly force. The hands on decision is clearly justified, just the methods might not go inline with our policies.

    Also, our policy wouldn't justify OC or a Taser, as he is not actively resisting. There's been some argument over this recently, as passive resistance can be much more dangerous, but as my policy is written now, neither would be justified.

    Is our policy much more restrictive than your department's?

  14. #14
    keith720's Avatar
    keith720 is offline Finely Aged
    Premium Lifetime Member
    Verified LEO
    Site Moderator
    Join Date
    01-06-06
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    5,364
    Rep Power
    5488745
    In my department, we would be justified in using the taser in this instance. Obviously there has to be reasonable suspicion to stop the person. I can't just walk up to Joe Blow on the street and tell him to take his hands out of his pockets, and then zap him if he doesn't! I agree that was a good takedown, but I think I'd have a problem justifying grabbing the guys throat, throwing him to the ground and kneeling on his head.
    For the morning will come. Brightly will it shine on the brave and true, kindly upon all who suffer for the cause, glorious upon the tombs of heroes. Thus will shine the dawn.

    Winston Churchill

  15. #15
    Dustoff262's Avatar
    Dustoff262 is offline Retirement date: December 29, 2019
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    06-07-08
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    301
    Rep Power
    151877
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnSmith View Post
    It was an excellent take down, however I don't think my department's policy would cover that as justified. We are very restrictive when it comes to a subject's neck. Pretty much, our hands on their neck is deadly force. The hands on decision is clearly justified, just the methods might not go inline with our policies.

    Also, our policy wouldn't justify OC or a Taser, as he is not actively resisting. There's been some argument over this recently, as passive resistance can be much more dangerous, but as my policy is written now, neither would be justified.

    Is our policy much more restrictive than your department's?
    Not really... All departments want to be able to indemnify the officer, so most departments spell out the do's and dont's. The take down was great in the sense he got him to comply, but like I mentioned I think he ratched up his use of force for the camera's sake. The presence of a camera usually changes the mode and attitude of an officer, looking for his YouTube moment. I didnt like his knee on his neck either. If this was played on the evening news, the officer would be modified immediately (gun and shield removed) and placed on desk assignment. The perp would have to choose from the hundreds of lawyers calling him, and the officer will have to articulate the threat that warranted a choke throat, that resulted in the perps head hitting the ground and a knee to the neck. Cops in NYC have been fired from the job for much less, and based on an accusation where no video was presented.

    Again.. Our object to going to work, is getting back home safely.

    In NYC, we would split his attention, throw him a few clear commands, a jab with the PR24 and if need be, escalate according to the perps actions. WE are going home to our families here fellas.. All of us. You, your partner, your back up team, your supervisor, and so... he will comply and we will do it in a professional manner. Anything less, someone is getting hurt. 8 pair of hands on the perp will get him under control. If he stuggles, resists, then that better be detailed completely on your report to explain any injuries he takes. The quicker the officer gets him undercontrol, the less problems later. Today, I encounter too many cops who are afraid of being sued, and as a result, they are afraid of putting hands on a perp. When I was a rookie, we were trained to fight dirty. Never a one on one fight. You call for the troops, and everyone got a shot in. If you werent going to knuckle down, then dont come to the party. When he was cuffed, it was over.. no cheap shots. If my perp was cuffed, and another cop took a cheap shot, then that cop just took over the collar, it wasnt mine, and I didnt want my name on the paperwork. Obviously, that cop had bigger problems with the rest of the squad awaiting back at the house.

    Not anymore... Now a cop has to have equal or worse injuries than the perp in order to avoid department charges, and assault charges from the DA. Cameras are everywhere.

    In this video, if the only resistance is that he doesnt take his hands out of his pockets, my partner and I would split his attention, each of us grab an arm and forcibly take them out and get him down on the ground, then cuff. Done. No jimmy fly snooka moves. No elbows, judo chops, or choke slaps. But, we are all going home safely. The perp's actions dictate what pain he feels. He will comply. We will make sure of that.
    "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." -- George Orwell

  16. #16
    JohnSmith is offline Officer First Class
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    09-03-09
    Posts
    153
    Rep Power
    314933
    Quote Originally Posted by Dustoff262 View Post
    In this video, if the only resistance is that he doesnt take his hands out of his pockets, my partner and I would split his attention, each of us grab an arm and forcibly take them out and get him down on the ground, then cuff. Done. No jimmy fly snooka moves. No elbows, judo chops, or choke slaps. But, we are all going home safely. The perp's actions dictate what pain he feels. He will comply. We will make sure of that.
    I completely agree, and that is exactly what we would have done as well. Move in, each grab an arm. I will say this, we would have gone hands on sooner than he did, but much less aggressively, and with two of us.

  17. #17
    berserk is offline The reason they do psych evals
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    11-24-08
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    749
    Blog Entries
    9
    Rep Power
    603396
    My opinion as an officer: I think I'd have gone with baton strikes or pepper spray in that case. Wouldn't have gone after the neck like that, too much risk of permanent injury for the circumstances.

    My opinion as a private citizen: fucker had that coming. Next time, take your hands out of your pockets.

  18. #18
    Code6's Avatar
    Code6 is offline Beep,Beep!!!
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    07-31-07
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    351
    Rep Power
    119048
    Quote Originally Posted by Thridwatch View Post
    An example is dealing with an uncooperative individual with their hands in their pockets refusing to take them out, I was wondering how to handle it because I know HANDS KILL!! Should I yell Stop or I will Tase you and they keep walking towards me, or do I tackle the threat to the ground and attempt to restrain them?

    Its ironic I am reading this question now. Recently, I was working an overtime shift and got dispatched to a call of a disturbance/possible domestic in the garage of a residence. Ther reporting party could only hear it and could not provide any further details. Upon arrival I saw two males and female talking on the sidewalk just north of the target address. My partner and I approached the residence and knocked at the door. We could not hear any disturbance going on. I ended up speaking with a female who was wrangling two toddlers. She advised that her husband and his friends got into an arguement in the garage and that the friends had left. I asked to speak with her husband. She stated he had left as well. I asked her if she could describe what her husband was wearing. She told me he was wearing a green t-shirt and shorts. I asked her if her husband was one of the men talking on the sidewalk north of her residence. She looked outside and said yep that's him. She told me his name was "John".

    My partner and I wanted to speak with John so as to determine what had gone on and to ensure there would be no further disturburances. I called over to him and he pointed at himself as said," I am not John, I am Dave. I said okay Dave will you come over and talk to me for a minute. So Dave came over and denied living at the address in question and stated that "John" had left walking north.

    I asked him if he had any ID on him, he said ,"no, explitive, explitive...At this point "Dave" had walked within about 6 feet of me. He then shoved his hands into his pockets. I asked "Dave" to take his hands out of his pockets. He said,"explitive, explitive, explitive...NO!" I then ordered him to take his hands out of his pockets. With essentially the same reply from him.

    I then quickly moved to his 2 1/2 and grabbed a hold of his arm with both of my hands. My partner did the same on the other side. The brainiac then shouted he had a gun. This resulted in knee strikes and the beginning of a takedown. My partner finding himself committed to being hands on as well as me. I started to complete a straight arm bar take down, with near success, but my partner was like the rag doll on the end of a rope, thus eliminating the momentum. My partner lost his grip on Mr Brainiac. As I turned with him. My partner deployed his Taser which had the desired effect.

    Mr Brainiac was arrested and charged with Obstructing a Peace Officer and Menacing(Felony).

    This story has been modified slightly, ever so slightly.



    Keep in mind that Police work is rarely "black and white" its all gray. There are many factors that can come into play in the decision making process. I am absolutely certain this incident can be picked apart to find a multitude of different approaches/reactions
    What if the Hokey Pokey is what it really is all about?





    Police others as you would have them Police you.

  19. #19
    Dustoff262's Avatar
    Dustoff262 is offline Retirement date: December 29, 2019
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    06-07-08
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    301
    Rep Power
    151877
    Code6, what do you think of the above posted video. By the way, great job.
    "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." -- George Orwell

  20. #20
    Code6's Avatar
    Code6 is offline Beep,Beep!!!
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    07-31-07
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    351
    Rep Power
    119048
    Quote Originally Posted by Dustoff262 View Post
    Code6, what do you think of the above posted video. By the way, great job.

    The move in the video was obviously effective, I wonder if a specific PPCT type technique was intended. I think utilizing the cover Officer more would have been a safer choice.
    What if the Hokey Pokey is what it really is all about?





    Police others as you would have them Police you.

 

 
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •