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Thread: NCIC question

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    NCIC question

    Hey guys,I have a question about the NCIC.This is a very long situation so I'll shorten it up for the reader.

    A classic car restoration company swindled me out of my 1967 Shelby GT500 Mustang.I'm one of 40 victims in this scam.The Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension (Mn.BCA) will be charging the owner with theft by swindle which is a felony on my behalf.

    The MnBCA entered my car into the NCIC data base and two days later the auditors kicked it out of the system because it didn't meet their criteria as "stolen".I don't understand this and have no idea why it was kicked out of the system.I'm not getting a coherent answer from anyone.

    The restoration company gave my car to another person to satisfiy a debt owed to this other person now I'm having to file a civil suit to regain possession of my stolen car because this person refuses to give it back to me and it's costing thousands of dollars to sue him.

    If the car stayed in the NCIC system ultimately it would be collected as evidence and eventually returned to me.

    Can someone tell my why the car was kicked out of the system given the fact the police are calling this a theft by swindle.

    Thank you.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by help a guy out View Post
    Hey guys,I have a question about the NCIC.This is a very long situation so I'll shorten it up for the reader.

    A classic car restoration company swindled me out of my 1967 Shelby GT500 Mustang.I'm one of 40 victims in this scam.The Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension (Mn.BCA) will be charging the owner with theft by swindle which is a felony on my behalf.

    The MnBCA entered my car into the NCIC data base and two days later the auditors kicked it out of the system because it didn't meet their criteria as "stolen".I don't understand this and have no idea why it was kicked out of the system.I'm not getting a coherent answer from anyone.

    The restoration company gave my car to another person to satisfiy a debt owed to this other person now I'm having to file a civil suit to regain possession of my stolen car because this person refuses to give it back to me and it's costing thousands of dollars to sue him.

    If the car stayed in the NCIC system ultimately it would be collected as evidence and eventually returned to me.

    Can someone tell my why the car was kicked out of the system given the fact the police are calling this a theft by swindle.

    Thank you.
    You're probably gonna have to call someone at MnBCA to get an answer to this....there are time my agency will enter a car stolen and times it won't, but I think those are policy-related decisions. Each agency has it's own policy. Good luck! Sounds like you have quite a deal on your hands.
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    Thank you for your response,Bob.

    When you say each agency has it's own policy,do you mean each police department has it's own policy?

    This is a very small town where this scam happened and the police department is a 3 man operation.This small PD entered it into the NCIC,not the MNBCA.

    Do I need to call the NCIC for clarification? Do you feel it's possible my attorney can convience the NCIC to put it back into the system?

    The MnBCA gave the case to the federal prosecutors and they are going forward with the case.Is it possible to have my attorney convience the fed's to put it back in the system?

    Thank you for any assistence you can provide.I lost a 100,000 car and it's costing me 15k to file a civil suit and I'm just trying to figure out the cheapest,most painless way of getting my car back.

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    The purpose of entering a vehicle on NCIC is to locate and recover the vehicle. An educated guess on my part is that the vehicle does not fit NCIC guidelines because its location is now known. I can't think of an instance when the vehicle being or not being on NCIC has bearing on whether it can be seized and held as evidence or fruits of a crime. NCIC is simply a tool to locate stolen property, missing or wanted persons, and a host of other information-related uses. All information contained on it must be verified with the originating agency before taking action.

    Just my opinion. You really should check with MnBCA for a definitive answer.
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    I wish I could help you with better answers, but I just don't know THAT much about NCIC. All I know is that when I tell my boss that I have something that is a candidate for entry, some times it gets entered and sometimes not. Cidp24's answer makes a lot of sense...NCIC is a tool for locating things. Since the car has actually been located, there's not really a need (as far as LE is concerned) to keep it in the system. For a more definitive answer, I would contact MnBCA.
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    Ok,I get it.Since the location of the car is known is the reason it doesn't qualify for the NCIC.That does make sense now.

    The only thing I can do is go forward with my conversion civil suit.

    Thanks again guys...be safe.

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    I dunno about that. I've had cars entered into NCIC before when it was known who had the car. Your car probably isn't being entered for another reason.

    You could ask MnBCA what their criteria are for entering the car as stolen (the FBI sets rules about what can be entered into NCIC, and state agencies set rules for what can be entered into comparable state databases).

    Regardless of whether or not the car can be entered into the system, if they are filing charges then I'm surprised that they haven't made efforts to recover the stolen car. Good luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berserk View Post
    I dunno about that. I've had cars entered into NCIC before when it was known who had the car. Your car probably isn't being entered for another reason.

    You could ask MnBCA what their criteria are for entering the car as stolen (the FBI sets rules about what can be entered into NCIC, and state agencies set rules for what can be entered into comparable state databases).

    Regardless of whether or not the car can be entered into the system, if they are filing charges then I'm surprised that they haven't made efforts to recover the stolen car. Good luck.
    There's a difference between knowing who has the car, and knowing where it is. Unauthorized use is a quick example: some kid drives of with Mommy's new BMW without permission, and it gets entered as "stolen" even though we know who has it, and even that there probably was no actual intent to steal.

    In this case -- it seems that the location of the car and who has it is known. There's no reason for it to be in NCIC. It's more like a repo situation than a theft; the bank wants the car because someone's not paying for it, but the car doesn't get entered as a "stolen vehicle." I am not suggesting that the OP "repo" his car unless he's got a court order to back him up!

    If the car is evidence, NCIC entry doesn't entitle the cops there to seize it. They'd still need a search warrant or an exception to the warrant requirement. And -- in all honesty, you don't want it seized as evidence. It'll get parked in an impound lot somewhere and you may not get it back until after the criminal trial. And appeals. It won't be tended or cared for beyond the barest minimum. Your best bet is to keep going with the civil proceedings. And realize, even then, you may find yourself awarded damages but not the car!
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    Who has title? The 3rd party with the vehicle has it to satisfy the the monies he was owed. Thats why he is not giving it up. If you have title to the vehicle and never transferred it you have a case. If you transferred it to the restorer then you have a problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge405 View Post
    Who has title? The 3rd party with the vehicle has it to satisfy the the monies he was owed. Thats why he is not giving it up. If you have title to the vehicle and never transferred it you have a case. If you transferred it to the restorer then you have a problem.
    Sarge,

    The restoration company was to sell the car for me to an individual in Dubia.When the restoration company told me the deal is set,they asked that I send the title to them.I asked to see the contract they had on the car and they did show me one.I didn't know then that it was a ficticious contract just made up to get possession of my title.

    The company submitted paperwork to the MN DMV but the transfer never took place because there was a recording error on the VIN.

    The 3rd party went to Mn to collect on his debt payment but the restoration company didn't have the money to give him so they gave him my car.

    This 3rd party has tried to register the car in his state but my attorney convienced the DMV to flag the issuance of the title so it's in suspense until a judge rules on the facts of law.

    The car is still registered and titled in my name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by help a guy out View Post
    Sarge,

    The restoration company was to sell the car for me to an individual in Dubia.When the restoration company told me the deal is set,they asked that I send the title to them.I asked to see the contract they had on the car and they did show me one.I didn't know then that it was a ficticious contract just made up to get possession of my title.

    The company submitted paperwork to the MN DMV but the transfer never took place because there was a recording error on the VIN.

    The 3rd party went to Mn to collect on his debt payment but the restoration company didn't have the money to give him so they gave him my car.

    This 3rd party has tried to register the car in his state but my attorney convienced the DMV to flag the issuance of the title so it's in suspense until a judge rules on the facts of law.

    The car is still registered and titled in my name.
    man...that sounds like a total cluster.
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    My 2c:

    Because of your surrendering the title to the vehicle, (albeit under false pretenses), the actual possession of the vehicle has now passed into being a civil matter. The criminal matter exists as to the false pretenses themselves, but the possession of the car was passed as means between the person in possession and the debtor to collect on a debt. You voluntarily surrendered the title, (for whatever reason), thus that matter of ownership and possession of the car is indeed severally civil now and not inherently criminal.

    Although it sounds like the whole matter is chaotic, at least it would appear you have competent legal representation now and steps are being taken to rectify it. Prepare yourself for the long, arduous process of the wheels of justice to turn on this one. Keep the faith, fight the good fight, stick with it, and hopefully you will recover at least some of what you lost. The most valuable lessons in life are often the hardest ones learned. I wish you well.

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    Yup,this is definitly a cluster.There are 40 victim worldwide.One guy from Austraila was taken for 500k!

    What really pisses me off the most no arrests have been made and we're 6 months into the investigation.At least the federal prosecutors chose to take the case and it's not with some small town DA who would likely just drop the ball.

    This scam I got caught up in is constantly on my mind and it's dragging me down.I just hope there is justice in the world and arrersts are made in the near future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by countybear View Post
    My 2c:

    Because of your surrendering the title to the vehicle, (albeit under false pretenses), the actual possession of the vehicle has now passed into being a civil matter. The criminal matter exists as to the false pretenses themselves, but the possession of the car was passed as means between the person in possession and the debtor to collect on a debt. You voluntarily surrendered the title, (for whatever reason), thus that matter of ownership and possession of the car is indeed severally civil now and not inherently criminal.

    Although it sounds like the whole matter is chaotic, at least it would appear you have competent legal representation now and steps are being taken to rectify it. Prepare yourself for the long, arduous process of the wheels of justice to turn on this one. Keep the faith, fight the good fight, stick with it, and hopefully you will recover at least some of what you lost. The most valuable lessons in life are often the hardest ones learned. I wish you well.
    Yes,I'm prepared to fight for what is mine although it will be expensive.When the restoration company requsted my title I knew they had a 1971 Pantera and I asked for that title for additional security until the sale of my shelby.

    They agreed to give me the Pantera title but the idiots signed it over to me.When this whole thing blew up and I became aware of this massive fraud,I returned the Pantera to the rightful owner....it's the right and moral thing to do.Just as I would have hoped the guy who has my Shelby would return it to me....no such luck.

    The police are calling this business a massive criminal operation.

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    You're dealing with multiple victims in multiple countries and states, and some pretty complicated questions of ownership going on as well. You may never see an arrest... How many of these victims are willing to come to the US for trial?

    I worked a similar case a few months back. One of our officers gets a stolen hit on a tag. Stops and detains the driver for investigation. Driver bought the car from a 3rd party. 3rd party bought the car from a guy who bought it from someone at auction. It had been sold at auction because it had been towed sometime back for being parked on private property without authorization. But... the day it was towed, it had been stolen in another state. For some reason, it took them more than 2 weeks to enter the car into NCIC. And the victim's insurance had paid off the car, essentially buying it. The wrecker company had followed all the legal steps to file a lien on it and be able to sell it before it was auctioned. Confused yet? End result is ownership is a civil matter -- and there are really two arguably equal owners.
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    My bet on why it was kicked from NCIC is because right now, it isn't actually "stolen". You mentioned knowing, or knowing of, the person currently holding the car, and how they came across it.

    From my angle, it would appear not to be able to be entered as stolen because the person currently possessing the vehicle did not steal it. You said the car was given by the swindler to the third person as payment for something. Technically the third person "bought" it in trade for something or some service in, at least on the surface, a legal transaction.

    Id also be willing to bet that you handing over the title and willingly giving the vehicle to the crook went in to the decision to kick it out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by countybear View Post
    the actual possession of the vehicle has now passed into being a civil matter..
    Exactly what I was thinking

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    Every state has different laws. This appears to be be now theft by fraud where either state or federal will bring charges. When any vehicles can be be recovered and returned they will be since there is a record of disposition.
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    NCIC audits are not a matter of State laws.

    The vehicle was rejected because it wasn't stolen, it was surrendered under a criminal pretense.

    You can ask your small town shop to show you the NCIC manual, it's a binder and you can FOIA it if needbe.
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