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Thread: Open carry Ohio question

  1. #21
    Xiphos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfed1100 View Post
    I'm standing on the fact that no law is violated by OC. The worried sheeple needs educated.
    If I was approached by LEO I would respectfully decline to offer any ID. I would remain silent. I would politely decline any search or seizure.
    My concern is a LEO that's fearful of OC would violate my rights the same as the dill hole in Detroit did. I'm prepared to fight the legal battle that could come from me standing up for my freedoms.
    MWAG calls are a report of a legal activity and should not require an officers time.
    While I understand an officers concern, it's not my job to justify a legal activity to him. That's where LEO training should come into play.
    That's the main reason so many choose to OC. It's a matter of trying to normalize a right.
    Admittedly, this can backfire and create legislation infringing on the protected right to Carry.
    I treat all LEO with respect. I have been in the passenger seat of a cruiser enough to understand the dilemma of what justifies the need to interview. From behind a badge I would conduct an interview to seek motives of the OC. As the open carrier I would not feel the need to justify my legal act of OC. Therefore to protect myself I'd decline any consensual search or seizure. I'd remain silent (also my right). I'd record the encounter and report any violation of my rights. The act of OC in Ohio is not Justification for a Terry stop.


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    The problem is there's no way to tell you apart from the guy headed to shoot up a mall or school. You being uncooperative makes it even harder to tell you apart. If the real goal is education then try being polite and cooperative with the cops. Having the cops come away from the contact appreciating OC is more educational than "Another asshole gun nut." Having law enforcement telling the community, "We encounter open carry people all the time and they are polite and we have nothing to fear from them," will also be better for desensitizing the public.

    The vast majority of the OC movement hate cops and intentionally goad them into confrontation to embarrass them on YouTube. The public sees those videos too and I doubt outside the OC they think anything other than the gun guy is an asshole. Again not helping the cause of converting the public.

    Be polite and cooperative. End the contact positively and create good will among everyone. If you think your rights were violated file a complaint and hire a civil rights attorney.
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  2. #22
    Cornfed1100 is offline Officer First Class
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    The cooperation is the violation. A man with a baseball bat doesn't get asked for ID in a mall parking lot. A man with a car doesn't have to prove he doesn't have the intent of driving it into the mall. The justification of acting legally is the civil rights issue.

    Remaining silent is to protect myself from the thousands of laws I'm certain I'm not aware of. Too often we hear well I couldn't find violation A so I wrote him up for violation B.
    OC is a great example of this. Because OC is not a violation the OC'r may get a ticket for disorderly conduct, inducing panic or some other trumped up feel good ticket skill.
    I rather request my attorney and supervisor rather than be the one holding sidewalk court.
    Though the chances of me OC are slim I still think it should be of no concern under most circumstances.....no ski mask, not walking into court, im not in the mall parking lot at midnight loading up, not wavin it around, not holding my opened beer, not beating my dog with it.... I have a list of things I'm not doing. What does an officer see other than a guy following the laws request to unload an load at the car=acting legally?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfed1100 View Post
    The cooperation is the violation. A man with a baseball bat doesn't get asked for ID in a mall parking lot. A man with a car doesn't have to prove he doesn't have the intent of driving it into the mall. The justification of acting legally is the civil rights issue.
    People with baseball bats and cars haven't famously committed mass murder. People with guns have. People with guns alarm other people. If the goal of the OC movement was to educate the public and desensitize them to guns they wouldn't act like belligerent assholes when contacted by LE. Their behavior is instead consistent with self righteous pricks who want to prove they're right and embarrass police. Their behavior is not consistent with their goal because everyone except the OC movement is not impressed.

    The OC movement's belligerent attitude in California has caused the loss of OC in that state. If they continue behaving the same way I predict other states clamping down similarly.
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  4. #24
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    I'll add OC'ers have the right to carry and they have the right to be assholes when contacted. It's counter productive though and is creating an adversarial relationship with LE and the community which serves to hurt their cause.
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  5. #25
    Jks9199 is offline The Reason People Hate Cops & Causer of War
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfed1100 View Post
    The cooperation is the violation. A man with a baseball bat doesn't get asked for ID in a mall parking lot. A man with a car doesn't have to prove he doesn't have the intent of driving it into the mall. The justification of acting legally is the civil rights issue.

    Remaining silent is to protect myself from the thousands of laws I'm certain I'm not aware of. Too often we hear well I couldn't find violation A so I wrote him up for violation B.
    OC is a great example of this. Because OC is not a violation the OC'r may get a ticket for disorderly conduct, inducing panic or some other trumped up feel good ticket skill.
    I rather request my attorney and supervisor rather than be the one holding sidewalk court.
    Though the chances of me OC are slim I still think it should be of no concern under most circumstances.....no ski mask, not walking into court, im not in the mall parking lot at midnight loading up, not wavin it around, not holding my opened beer, not beating my dog with it.... I have a list of things I'm not doing. What does an officer see other than a guy following the laws request to unload an load at the car=acting legally?


    Tapatalk requires no training for things like spelling, accuracy, clarity, cohesiveness or manners.
    A man with a baseball bat in a parking lot that doesn't contain either a ball park or sports store may well get questioned, if I see him. If the actions, attire, and stuff being carried doesn't jive with the general situation, that's grounds for me to have a chat. Might be legit, might not -- but I'm going to look into it. Which does include asking for ID. If I don't have grounds to demand it, that's where it'll stop. But I'll ask...

    Beyond that, I think you're being a bit on the paranoid side. I hope the number of cops who are unaware of the legalities involved in Open Carry within their jurisdiction is very much on the wane. That is one good thing that the Open Carry stunts has done: it's made departments aware of a deficiency in training, and they've corrected it. Yeah, if you walk around, openly carrying a gun for no apparent justification, like not being a guard in uniform, or a bodyguard, just a "guy with a gun", I might say hello. The way you handle respond will shape how I handle it. Act like you're guilty of something, and I'll probably handle it like you're guilty. Act like you're doing nothing wrong, and you'll probably go your way with minimal disruption. Even if I laugh and call you an idiot (or worse) when talking about it with my partners later... Though I'll second Xiphos: you have the right to be an asshat. It's just going to make something that might have been a very quick encounter longer...

    Let me give you an example. A few years back, I stopped a car for speeding. The guy tells me up front that he's got 2 problems: 1) he's carrying a gun, and 2) he left his wallet with his Concealed Carry License at his buddy's house. OK, no problem -- until I ran him, and nothing came up. Uh oh... At that point, I took custody of the gun, and unloaded it to make it safe. Eventually, we got to the bottom of it, and I learned that the databases for the CCW cards and driver's license don't necessarily match completely, and if you don't run the name in a way that matches exactly -- it won't come back. We got his card, confirmed it, and sent him on his way, with his gun. (I forget whether he got a ticket or not, but I think so.)
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  6. #26
    Cornfed1100 is offline Officer First Class
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    Does silence equate to guilt?


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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfed1100 View Post
    Does silence equate to guilt?


    Tapatalk requires no training for things like spelling, accuracy, clarity, cohesiveness or manners.
    You have the right to carry and not cooperate. However that attitude doesn't help the stated goal of educating and converting the public to support OC.
    rob84 likes this.
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    If I lived every day like it was my last, the body count would be staggering.

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    Hunt the wolf, and bring light to the dark places that others fear to go. LT COL Dave Grossman

  8. #28
    Jks9199 is offline The Reason People Hate Cops & Causer of War
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornfed1100 View Post
    Does silence equate to guilt?


    Tapatalk requires no training for things like spelling, accuracy, clarity, cohesiveness or manners.
    Not at all. But silence, and a demand for a lawyer, also fails to not imply guilt. If someone walks into a room and starts saying "I've got nothing to hide! Don't look at me! I'm not hiding anything!", isn't it natural for the first thought to be about what he's hiding? If you don't want to talk to me, and don't give me any answers, I'm not going to be able to determine what's going on, right? Now, if you're not breaking the law, it's going to stop pretty quick -- but a simple "I'm Fred. I'm going to go shopping, and the law prevents me from driving with my gun loaded." could end the encounter right there. Most folks up to no good aren't going to be cooperative, they're not going to explain why they had to do things the way that they are... they're going to either be argumentative and challenging, or say nothing and call for their lawyer.

    So, you're not talking, you're not breaking the law directly... Yeah, I'll have to get creative. Probably run your tags, determine your likely identity from them... and maybe dig deeper from that.

    I'm not suggesting be some form of Caspar Milquetoast begging my forgiveness and meekly surrendering your ID. I absolutely understand a "why?" response. My answer would probably be much like what I'd tell the guy with a baseball bat: "Somebody saw you, and got nervous. I'm just doing my job, how about helping me out for a minute so I can get you on your way?"
    Voting against incumbents until we get a Congress that does its job.

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  9. #29
    Cornfed1100 is offline Officer First Class
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jks9199 View Post
    Not at all. But silence, and a demand for a lawyer, also fails to not imply guilt. If someone walks into a room and starts saying "I've got nothing to hide! Don't look at me! I'm not hiding anything!", isn't it natural for the first thought to be about what he's hiding? If you don't want to talk to me, and don't give me any answers, I'm not going to be able to determine what's going on, right? Now, if you're not breaking the law, it's going to stop pretty quick -- but a simple "I'm Fred. I'm going to go shopping, and the law prevents me from driving with my gun loaded." could end the encounter right there. Most folks up to no good aren't going to be cooperative, they're not going to explain why they had to do things the way that they are... they're going to either be argumentative and challenging, or say nothing and call for their lawyer.

    So, you're not talking, you're not breaking the law directly... Yeah, I'll have to get creative. Probably run your tags, determine your likely identity from them... and maybe dig deeper from that.

    I'm not suggesting be some form of Caspar Milquetoast begging my forgiveness and meekly surrendering your ID. I absolutely understand a "why?" response. My answer would probably be much like what I'd tell the guy with a baseball bat: "Somebody saw you, and got nervous. I'm just doing my job, how about helping me out for a minute so I can get you on your way?"
    Fair statement. I hope when my encounter comes I have an understanding officer like the ones represented here.
    I rarely OC for fear of these situations I pose. I talk tuff but I'm sure I'd cave to any LEO's approach. The questions and ideas I have posed are not generally my demeanor. I like your input and feel its sincere.
    Thanks


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  10. #30
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    A couple of weeks ago, we responded to a report of a domestic on the ticketing level curbside area at the airport. The incident was reported by a passerby to a fellow officer who was assisting a stranded motorist on the airport roadway while blocking a lane of traffic, so he relayed what he was told to Dispatch. Dispatch pulls it up on camera and tells us where the male and female are at this time. We get in the area, separate both parties, and investigate the nature of the call. Turns out, the citizen who called it in didn't understand what they saw. The male tried to yell to his girlfriend for a cigarette, over the noise of a jet engine taking off on the nearby runway. The female didn't hear him, so he jogged up to her. She was crying when we got there, but only because she didn't want to fly out to visit her family and had anxiety from it. No laws were broken, but we stopped and questioned two citizens who did absolutely nothing wrong. Why? Because it's our job to respond to a scene and make sure everything's ok and legal when we leave. A MWAG call is going to be a lot more strenuous for responding officers just based on the fact that there's an unknown person, with a gun, who may or may not be a threat to the general public or first responders. Neither the male or female objected to us speaking with them or the fact that we separated them to verify the facts. The problem with the OCers is that many of them try to provoke a confrontation with law enforcement to help "further their cause". I support their right to carry (and I recently got my own MN Permit to Carry to support the program), but I believe that OC is tactically unsound. The only time you'll catch me OCing out of uniform is at training if I'm wearing a shirt and tie, but my badge is also on my belt next to my gun. Other than that, I conceal and rest easy knowing that a clueless citizen won't be calling me in as a MWAG.
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    The views expressed in the above post are the sole opinion of the author and do not reflect any official position by the author's employer and/or municipality.

  11. #31
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    Ya know, there are all kinds of stupid people in this world and no matter what you do or say, it won't change them one iota. Mannnnny years ago, I was a rookie walking the midnight beat. The SGT rolls up and said someone complained on me. I asks who??? (the Sarge was the first one I seen in over a hour). He said some one called the station and said there was a guy walking around the area, in and out of alleys, etc., wearing a gun. Dispatch asked to describe him and the caller said: He is wearing a dark blue outfit with a blue had. The dispatcher asked he he was wearing a badge and the caller said Yes. Go figure. (the first of many a complaint in my long career.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by gopherpuckfan View Post
    Turns out, the citizen who called it in didn't understand what they saw. The male tried to yell to his girlfriend for a cigarette, over the noise of a jet engine taking off on the nearby runway. The female didn't hear him, so he jogged up to her. She was crying when we got there, but only because she didn't want to fly out to visit her family and had anxiety from it.
    Sounds like one of those "things aren't always as they seem" riddles, like "A man with no eyes saw pears on a tree. He did not take pears. He did not leave pears. How can this be?"



    Quote Originally Posted by bayern View Post
    Ya know, there are all kinds of stupid people in this world and no matter what you do or say, it won't change them one iota. Mannnnny years ago, I was a rookie walking the midnight beat. The SGT rolls up and said someone complained on me. I asks who??? (the Sarge was the first one I seen in over a hour). He said some one called the station and said there was a guy walking around the area, in and out of alleys, etc., wearing a gun. Dispatch asked to describe him and the caller said: He is wearing a dark blue outfit with a blue had. The dispatcher asked he he was wearing a badge and the caller said Yes. Go figure. (the first of many a complaint in my long career.)


    At least you didn't have to chase yourself....

 

 
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