Federal Judge OKs Use of Pepper Spray on Naval Recruits

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Originally Posted by Retdetsgt

So, if some police recruit falls to the ground crying when he's sprayed, you then recommend ending his career?

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If a police officer can't function being exposed to OC then yes, they shouldn't be a cop. And it's worth finding out before they are on the street.

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Originally Posted by Retdetsgt

Have you seen a recruit's fired for not being able to handle pepper spray?

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They were trained properly and worked through it so they didn't need to be fired. I know of some that had to repeat the exposure and the fight because they broke down on the initial exposure. The second time around they knew what to do and they succeeded. I'd hate for that first exposure to have been during a bad fight on the street.

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Originally Posted by Retdetsgt

I've known a number of cops I didn't have much faith in their ability to back me up, allergy to spray would have been way, way down on my list of concerns.

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That sounds like a hiring and retention issue, nothing to do with whether they can work through OC or were trained properly.

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Originally Posted by Retdetsgt

What about shooting yourself in the leg so you'll be prepared for that if it happens?

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OC doesn't cause permanent and serious damage like a bullet does. We do a drill simulating your leg being shot in the academy. We submerge their leg in a big rubber boot filled with ice water. It imobilizes their leg and causes a lot of distraction. They have to maintain their composure in the gun fight that's simulated with simunition. They have to not only return fire but get themselves and a wounded comrade to cover with their leg being useless and in a lot of pain.

You can simulate injuries but you can't simulate OC exposure. Especially since OC exposure won't cause permanent damage, a bullet will.

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Originally Posted by Retdetsgt

Or have someone hit you repeatedly on the shin with a nightstick while you fight?

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A nightstick to the shin will not incapacitate you. It may break your leg but you can still move and still fight. We simulate these types of injuries in defensive tactics though. Breaking their legs for real is not an option but simulating injuries is. You can't simulate OC exposure and it doesn't cause that kind of damage anyway.

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Originally Posted by Retdetsgt

This scenario can be carried easily into the ridiculous using the same reasoning.

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So can quibbling and "what if" scenarios.

The OC training I went through was helpful when I was exposed to it on the street. The better prepared we can make our recruits, the better we serve them when the shit hits the fan. We do prepare them for serious injuries, along with OC exposure.

All due respect RETDETSGT, I'm with XIPHOS on this. I feel that being exposed to the OC and learning to fight through it will take the suprise factor out of a street fight first exposure. I have been contaminated everytime I use it, sure it hurts like hell but the diffrence is that I know that I can breathe and see, the bad guy is the one panicing..and getting cuffed.

XIPHOS, the ice filled boot will be worked into my firearms training program if I have anything to do with it...thats good stuff!

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Originally Posted by Xiphos

If a police officer can't function being exposed to OC then yes, they shouldn't be a cop. And it's worth finding out before they are on the street.

They were trained properly and worked through it so they didn't need to be fired. I know of some that had to repeat the exposure and the fight because they broke down on the initial exposure. The second time around they knew what to do and they succeeded. I'd hate for that first exposure to have been during a bad fight on the street.

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That's a pretty narrow perspective of police work. Firing someone because they "might" catch some blowback is a waste of possibly excellent officers. Frankly, I was let down more on the street by people that were 5 ft nothing, a hundred and nothing that couldn't carry their water unless they pulled something off their belt. And we hire lots of them all the time.

I worked a high crime area when I was on the street, I've had ribs, my nose and my hand broken in fights. In all these, I managed to continue. I don't care how you do it, you cannot completely replicate a situation in a training environment to one where you're fighting for your ass. Maybe we have a different mindset, but I nor anyone I ever worked with were slowed down much by just about any injury short of being rendered unconscious. I can't imagine not being able to work though about anything on the street just because I didn't experience it in training. As I said, when I worked the street, it was the ghetto after the race riots where just about every arrest was a fight. It boggles my mind to think that I wouldn't be able to deal with something when my ass was on the line just because I didn't get it done to me before.

Weapons retention is a horse of a different color, as is felony traffic stops, etc. We're talking about doing what you have to do through pain. If pain is going to distract you to the point you can't do your job, you're screwed anyway. Trained or not.

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Originally Posted by Xiphos

The OC training I went through was helpful when I was exposed to it on the street. The better prepared we can make our recruits, the better we serve them when the shit hits the fan. We do prepare them for serious injuries, along with OC exposure.

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Well, I worked for a nearly 1000 man dept that doesn't force recruits to endure being sprayed and never once heard about someone being incapacitated because they got hit with pepper the first time one the street in a real fight. Again, if people want to, fine. But there is no definitive evidence that it's necessary.

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Originally Posted by Retdetsgt

That's a pretty narrow perspective of police work. Firing someone because they "might" catch some blowback is a waste of possibly excellent officers.

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Please quote where I said that. If they can't take blowback, or frankly being sprayed full on by an over zealous rookie, and work through it they shouldn't be cops. Lets train them to fight through it while they are in the academy, not when they are in a fight on the street.

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Originally Posted by Retdetsgt

Frankly, I was let down more on the street by people that were 5 ft nothing, a hundred and nothing that couldn't carry their water unless they pulled something off their belt. And we hire lots of them all the time... Well, I worked for a nearly 1000 man dept that doesn't force recruits to endure being sprayed and never once heard about someone being incapacitated because they got hit with pepper the first time one the street in a real fight. Again, if people want to, fine. But there is no definitive evidence that it's necessary.

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Then I submit your agency has terrible hiring and retention standards and inadequate training. I don't care how big it is. I never said it was necessary I said it was helpful. I think it is important training. I think agencies that don't do it probably have sub-standard training.

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Originally Posted by Retdetsgt

I worked a high crime area when I was on the street, I've had ribs, my nose and my hand broken in fights. In all these, I managed to continue. I don't care how you do it, you cannot completely replicate a situation in a training environment to one where you're fighting for your ass.

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Agreed. But you can simulate it and try your best to prepare for it. OC spray can be used without any long term effects, so there's no harm it using it in training. The benefits I think outweigh any risks.

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Originally Posted by Retdetsgt

I can't imagine not being able to work though about anything on the street just because I didn't experience it in training.

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I never said that. I said it was helpful.

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Originally Posted by Retdetsgt

If pain is going to distract you to the point you can't do your job, you're screwed anyway. Trained or not.

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Let's find out in the academy not the street.

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Originally Posted by Retdetsgt

I still think it's become a macho rite of passage thing with no real useful purpose.

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I wish you'd convince TCLEOSE of that before April. We can't carry it unless we've been sprayed, according to TCLEOSE rules.

My OC class has been rescheduled for about the 5th time, this time for April 4th. That makes almost a year of re-schedulings. I'm about ready to go down to Austin and spray MYSELF in their lobby just to show them I did it and to get it over with :faint:

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Originally Posted by Bob Loblaw

Our DT guys sprayed us, then we had to punch and kick the bag for a minute, draw our blue guns and keep them pointed at the "suspect" for a minute then some other police type activity (don't remember what, exactly) for a minute. Although I did NOT enjoy it very much (if you ask me, I'd take a thousand tasings before I volunteer for OC again), I think the spraying was a good training tool. When all the fellas are piled up on a dude, some moron's gotta go spraying that stuff on everyone's face in the pile. It's good to know that, although thoroughly painful, you can fight through it. Also, it's good to know that the bad guy can fight through the pain, too...good lesson for those who have never messed with it before - the spray is NOT an instant capacitator.

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I agree; the most important reason for being sprayed in training is so that you KNOW you can fight through and past it. For two reasons. First, as has already been said, it's almost inevitable that we'll get sprayed when anyone gets sprayed... Second, so that you know that the spray won't magically stop a bad guy. After all, if you can funtion -- so might they. As an added "bonus", by spraying the class, you get to see a range of reactions.

Tazers -- I'm more mixed on. I think it was important to take the ride; if you point a Taser at me -- I'm shooting your ass because I know that for at least 5 seconds after a good hit, I absolutely will be out of the fight. But does everyone need to take the ride? Not so sure of that. How does it balance against risk of injury? It's a matter for discussion and decision within the agency.

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Originally Posted by Retdetsgt

Well, I worked for a nearly 1000 man dept that doesn't force recruits to endure being sprayed and never once heard about someone being incapacitated because they got hit with pepper the first time one the street in a real fight. Again, if people want to, fine. But there is no definitive evidence that it's necessary.

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Sarge, with all due respect.......training has come a long way since you were patrolling with Wyatt and Virgil Earp. :biggrin1:

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Originally Posted by TXCharlie

I'm about ready to go down to Austin and spray MYSELF in their lobby just to show them I did it and to get it over with

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Let me know when you are going, I'd pay to see that!!:D Make sure their all down wind first.