Federal Judge OKs Use of Pepper Spray on Naval Recruits

[gopherpuckfan]

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Federal Judge OKs Navy Blasting Recruits in the Eyes With Pepper Spray During Training

A federal judge reportedly has given the Navy the green light to blast recruits in the eyes with pepper spray during training even though the practice is banned during warfare by international law.

U.S. District Court Judge Richard Leon dismissed a lawsuit brought by Naval police officers trying to stop the direct use of the spray on trainees, according to the Legal Times and other reports.

The officers argued that spraying pepper directly on the eyes is dangerous and violated recruits’ constitutional rights, the Times reported.

They proposed the Navy use safer methods in training, such as smearing a small amount of spray below the eyes or having recruits walk through a room that had been sprayed.

Pepper spray can cause problems ranging from swelling and blisters to respiratory problems and, in rare occasions, death.

But though the direct use of pepper spray "indisputably risks injury," Leon wrote in his Friday decision, "the agency decided that this risk was offset by the benefits of training."
He added that the officers' constitutional arguments could not stand, as trainees were being treated equally and the practices did not "shock the conscience," as is standard for a substantive due process claim, according to the Times.

Pepper spray is also commonly used in police training.

[Retdetsgt]

If you want to be able to testify to the effect of it, all you have to do is read the side of the can. It's been around long enough that everyone knows what it will do, spraying each other has become some sort of "rite of passage".

It bullshit to say you have to have to have been sprayed to testify in court what it does to someone. Same with tasers, you can read the literature from the manufacturer to the court and that will suffice just fine. This has become an urban myth, I've yet to read or hear of an officer using it w/o being sprayed or zapped and losing a case in court.

[MacLean]

Any of you ever see a blister from pepper spray, or have these driveby journalists been listening to amnesty international again?

As for the idea that is is bullshit to have to be sprayed or Tased, well maybe.

I have a video of each being done to me to display on demand in court. If you choose not to, I won't hold it against you.

[Retdetsgt]

I have a video of each being done to me to display on demand in court. If you choose not to, I won't hold it against you.

Have you ever been asked to show it in court? I've had to explain in court why I hit someone with a flashlight or nightstick and no one asked me if I'd ever had it done to me.

I just find it odd that tasers and pepper spray are the only tools that police carry that some think they have to have it used on them before they can carry it. I carried pepper spray and used it a couple of times. I wasn't asked by anyone if I'd been sprayed before. As I said earlier, if they'd have asked me the effects, I could read them off the side of the canister. We don't even have to shoot each other with rubber bullets, why tasers and spray? I still think it's become a macho rite of passage thing with no real useful purpose.

[Morris]

Yep. Already had the use of a TASER against a subject raised in court. I was able to make the attorney look like a fool when I amusingly offered to show him my video of experiencing the TASER, although, to the laughter of the jury and judge, I warned him it would be rated R for language.

I won the case as the attorney attempted to use it to distract the jury that his client was a sloshing deuce. My willingness to provide the video was an acknowledged factor in the decision of the jury.

Funny how Navy cops are bigger pussies. Knowing how the OC works on you makes you a better officer in working through it to adequately defend your self if the application is reversed (and it has been over the years).

[pgg]

Any of you ever see a blister from pepper spray, or have these driveby journalists been listening to amnesty international again?

As for the idea that is is bullshit to have to be sprayed or Tased, well maybe.

I have a video of each being done to me to display on demand in court. If you choose not to, I won't hold it against you.

I have never seen a blister, I have fair skin and it gets a little red like a bad sunburn but thats it.

[MacLean]

Have you ever been asked to show it in court?

No sir, I volunteer it up front.

With big doe eyes, I say - counsel, I would be glad to show the jury my video where I was sprayed/Tased to prove to you that it is not a big deal.

They demur.

[lewisipso]

I'm waiting to be asked if I have been shot with my Glock so that I can testify to the effects of that also.

[Bob Loblaw]

Our DT guys sprayed us, then we had to punch and kick the bag for a minute, draw our blue guns and keep them pointed at the "suspect" for a minute then some other police type activity (don't remember what, exactly) for a minute. Although I did NOT enjoy it very much (if you ask me, I'd take a thousand tasings before I volunteer for OC again), I think the spraying was a good training tool. When all the fellas are piled up on a dude, some moron's gotta go spraying that stuff on everyone's face in the pile. It's good to know that, although thoroughly painful, you can fight through it. Also, it's good to know that the bad guy can fight through the pain, too...good lesson for those who have never messed with it before - the spray is NOT an instant capacitator.

[Bob Loblaw]

When all the fellas are piled up on a dude, some moron's gotta go spraying that stuff on everyone's face in the pile.

Geez...I really am racking up the out-of-context sig lines these days, huh? Better start proofreading a bit more carefully!

[Wolven]

Our dept doesnt give you a choice. When I first got here I was directly sprayed in the eyes three times! Now we just get level 2 or 3 contamination ever year.

The Taser has always been voluntary in our dept. I took a ride just to see what it was like. I, like Bob, would rather be Tasered then pepper sprayed.

And Bob....you are going to become the official O/R quote man at some point!

[Captain America]

I'm waiting to be asked if I have been shot with my Glock so that I can testify to the effects of that also.

I'm certified with the Smith & Wesson.

[swaggon]

I agree with retdetsgt, it seems more of a rite of passage than a valuable training tool. I had a tough time with OC in my Academy. However, all of our training was tough and way beyond standard. The Lt.'s were famous for saying that we don't have the luxury of backup yadda yadda yadda. I think one minute drills while contaminating the room would do just fine. Lastly, fuck the inventor, manufacturer and developer of pepper spray. I would love to know what the hell he was thinking when he developed it and can you imagine being the first dude ever to be sprayed?

[TXPO710]

I thought going through the pepper spray was an eye opener. out of 8, 2 of us had no significant reaction. The instructor took me and the other guy and sprayed us 3 times with 3 different cans. We had some mild discomfort but that was it. I learned not to count on it at all, the odds arn't that great that it will work.

[Retdetsgt]

I thought going through the pepper spray was an eye opener. out of 8, 2 of us had no significant reaction. The instructor took me and the other guy and sprayed us 3 times with 3 different cans. We had some mild discomfort but that was it. I learned not to count on it at all, the odds arn't that great that it will work.

You can't count on anything. A neighboring county's deputies had a drug laden, naked moron that didn't respond to a taser either, believe it or not. They ended up shooting him.

Before pepper spray, we had Mace. That worked the best on other officers when the sprayer got slaphappy with it. Sometimes it incapacitated the bad guy, sometimes it didn't. It seemed to always take the cops out though.

I hit a big, drunk longshoreman right in the family jewels with a flashlight one night. His response? "Don't do that!" and kept on fighting.... You can't absolutely predict how anyone will respond to anything other that a gunshot to the heart or forehead.

Earlier I said rubber bullets, I meant bean bag rounds we fire with the shotgun. I've yet to hear of a defense attorney asking the utilizing officer is he's ever been hit with one.

No one has yet explained to me why some of our weapons need to be used on us and others don't. Nor why it matters in court when there are tons of literature from testing by the various manufacturers on what kind of results might be expected from their use. The more you volunteer shit like that in court, the more it's going to be asked. If we didn't start out tasing and spraying each other, I seriously doubt any defense attorney would bother with it.

[K9Tom]

Personally, I was glad that I got sprayed when I started with my second department. I had to complete several tasks. I quickly learned how helpful this was in a fight with a turd and several other officers. One of the guys sprayed the turd and got me good. I was able to work through it and stay in the fight. Once I cuffed the guy, I let them get the guy in the car. Getting sprayed during the fight did not have the shock factor that it did the first time I got sprayed. So I definately see a purpose in getting sprayed.

[Xiphos]

I've been sprayed and contaminated with OC on the street multiple times during fights. There's always wind in your face or blowback. Having been sprayed in training I know what to expect and how to work through it and treat it when it's over. For that it's worth being sprayed in training.

[Retdetsgt]

I've been sprayed and contaminated with OC on the street multiple times during fights. There's always wind in your face or blowback. Having been sprayed in training I know what to expect and how to work through it and treat it when it's over. For that it's worth being sprayed in training.

You wouldn't be able to work through it if you hadn't been sprayed in training? I've gotten blowback from Mace in the old days and worked through it, I can't see how having been sprayed before in training would have made it any easier. You better be able to fight through whatever happens to you anyway. I can't see what knowing what to expect has to do with it, you do what you have to do. Hell, I've gotten ribs broken in a fight and the adrenaline kept me fighting until it was over. I think broken ribs trumps shock factor from any spray.

We were taught in training what to do for the bad guys when they got sprayed, would it be different for ourselves?

If people want to volunteer to be sprayed or tased, more power to them. But I've yet to be shown a reason why it should be mandatory.

[Xiphos]

You wouldn't be able to work through it if you hadn't been sprayed in training? I've gotten blowback from Mace in the old days and worked through it, I can't see how having been sprayed before in training would have made it any easier. You better be able to fight through whatever happens to you in a beef. I can't see what knowing what to expect has to do with it, you do what you have to do. Hell, I've gotten ribs broken in a fight and the adrenaline kept me fighting until it was over. I think broken ribs trumps shock factor from any spray.

We were taught in training what to do for the bad guys when they got sprayed, would it be different for ourselves?

I've seen people sprayed who immediately panic and fall on the ground blind and crying. Certainly not everyone does that. If two percent of the population had that kind of extreme reaction wouldn't you want to make sure police recruits aren't in that group? Spraying them in a controlled environment, expecting them to fight a couple guys wearing Redman suits means that at least you can trust them on the street if they get sprayed, and they will get sprayed. If they can't hack it in training can you expect them to hack it on the street?

I've always thought the reason for making military recruits get exposed to tear gas, or whatever they use, was to prepare them for exposure in the field. Can you maintain composure long enough to work through it and get your protective gear on?

The first couple times I was exposed to the stuff on the street I found my training very helpful. I knew exactly what was going on, I knew exactly how I was effected by it, and I knew I could continue fighting. Would I have done that anyway? Probably. But it was still nice being prepared for it.

[Retdetsgt]

I've seen people sprayed who immediately panic and fall on the ground blind and crying. Certainly not everyone does that. If two percent of the population had that kind of extreme reaction wouldn't you want to make sure police recruits aren't in that group? Spraying them in a controlled environment, expecting them to fight a couple guys wearing Redman suits means that at least you can trust them on the street if they get sprayed, and they will get sprayed. If they can't hack it in training can you expect them to hack it on the street?

I've always thought the reason for making military recruits get exposed to tear gas, or whatever they use, was to prepare them for exposure in the field. Can you maintain composure long enough to work through it and get your protective gear on?

The first couple times I was exposed to the stuff on the street I found my training very helpful. I knew exactly what was going on, I knew exactly how I was effected by it, and I knew I could continue fighting. Would I have done that anyway? Probably. But it was still nice being prepared for it.

So, if some police recruit falls to the ground crying when he's sprayed, you then recommend ending his career? I've seen Mace effect people that badly too, but I've never known of a cop losing his job because of it. Have you seen a recruit's fired for not being able to handle pepper spray? It doesn't seem to be epidemic enough to consider that. I've known a number of cops I didn't have much faith in their ability to back me up, allergy to spray would have been way, way down on my list of concerns.

The idea for military and tear gas is to teach them to put on the mask under stress. We don't carry masks. If we did, I'd recommend the training because there are certain mechanical steps you have to memorize in putting it on correctly.

What about shooting yourself in the leg so you'll be prepared for that if it happens? Or have someone hit you repeatedly on the shin with a nightstick while you fight? This scenario can be carried easily into the ridiculous using the same reasoning.