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  1. #1
    121Traffic's Avatar
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    Short Barrel Rifles and the BATFE

    Question:

    I'm building a SBR AR. My current stick is a DSArms Lower with a Patriot Ordinance piston upper. I am buying a short barrel piston upper from CMMG...10.3 inch barrel. I'm getting the upper at a very good price, and I just plan on still using the DSArms lower. (At some point, when I have some more disposable cash, I'll buy a good price lower so I can keep two complete rifles)I know that the ATF considers the lower receiver the actual firearm, since that's the part that's stamped with the serial number, has the trigger group, etc. From what I understand, the upper can be transferred directly to me as a non-firearm item. I cannot, obviously and at the risk of committing a federal felony, mate the two together until I have my tax stamp. I also know that once I register my lower as an SBR, it will ALWAYS be an SBR, and must be engraved with an SBR designation, and even if I put a long upper back on it, it can still be subject to SBR laws regarding interstate transportation, etc.

    I've got the money from the PD to buy it (we have a weapons loan program), and some goodies for it, and have the tax stamp money lined up. My question is, do I fill out the ATF Form 4 for transferring a NFA firearm (transferor to transferee)? Or do I fill out the Form 1, which is the application to MAKE a NFA firearm? I'm leaning towards doing the Form 1, since it makes more sense since I already OWN the "firearm" part of the SBR, which is the lower receiver, and I plan on MAKING that lower into an SBR. I know we've got some NFA owners here!
    "If anything worthwhile comes of this tragedy, it should be the realization by every citizen that often the only thing that stands between them and losing everything they hold dear... is the man wearing a badge." -- Ronald Reagan, in the wake of the deaths of 4 CHP troopers in the Newhall Incident, 1970

    The opinions given in my posts DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "121Traffic" on O/R.

  2. #2
    MacLean's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure you need the manufacture form, but I wouldn't bank on it the way BATFE changes the way they interpret their own rules based on who is in office.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
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  3. #3
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    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  4. #4
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    Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's the manufacture form. Who would I put on the transfer form, ya know? I'm transferring the lower receiver from myself...to myself?
    "If anything worthwhile comes of this tragedy, it should be the realization by every citizen that often the only thing that stands between them and losing everything they hold dear... is the man wearing a badge." -- Ronald Reagan, in the wake of the deaths of 4 CHP troopers in the Newhall Incident, 1970

    The opinions given in my posts DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "121Traffic" on O/R.

  5. #5
    MacLean's Avatar
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    Everyone I know suggests setting up a trust rather than owning them as an individual.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  6. #6
    121Traffic's Avatar
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    I don't have much experience at all with the trusts. Everyone I know here at the PD owns them individually. We've got lots of guys with supressors, SBRs, SB shotguns, etc. None of them are working right now to ask though, but I will ask them too. What are the advantages of setting up a trust as opposed to owning them individually?
    "If anything worthwhile comes of this tragedy, it should be the realization by every citizen that often the only thing that stands between them and losing everything they hold dear... is the man wearing a badge." -- Ronald Reagan, in the wake of the deaths of 4 CHP troopers in the Newhall Incident, 1970

    The opinions given in my posts DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "121Traffic" on O/R.

  7. #7
    MacLean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 121Traffic View Post
    I don't have much experience at all with the trusts. Everyone I know here at the PD owns them individually. We've got lots of guys with supressors, SBRs, SB shotguns, etc. None of them are working right now to ask though, but I will ask them too. What are the advantages of setting up a trust as opposed to owning them individually?

    When an individual owns it, that person is the only person who may possess it or have access to it.

    That is largely only a problem if someone else has access to your safe, like a wife. Or maybe if you wanna let someone shoot it on the range.

    I ran into this problem before my wife was a US citizen and during a period where my State was not issuing alien firearms licenses. She was in constructive possession of a firearm, which was problematic. I had to keep all the safe keys.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  8. #8
    121Traffic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    When an individual owns it, that person is the only person who may possess it or have access to it.

    That is largely only a problem if someone else has access to your safe, like a wife. Or maybe if you wanna let someone shoot it on the range.

    I ran into this problem before my wife was a US citizen and during a period where my State was not issuing alien firearms licenses. She was in constructive possession of a firearm, which was problematic. I had to keep all the safe keys.
    So if you set up a trust, other people can have possession, either literally or constructive, of the NFA firearm? As in letting someone shoot it at the range, etc? I had no idea that it was a violation of NFA. I've shot others' personally-owned NFA stuff before...SBRs, full autos, what have you. Luckily it's always been in a work setting, i.e. on PD range days. I always just figured that as long as the owner was there, I was good to go.

    Or did you mean letting someone borrow the firearm to take to the range on their own?
    "If anything worthwhile comes of this tragedy, it should be the realization by every citizen that often the only thing that stands between them and losing everything they hold dear... is the man wearing a badge." -- Ronald Reagan, in the wake of the deaths of 4 CHP troopers in the Newhall Incident, 1970

    The opinions given in my posts DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "121Traffic" on O/R.

  9. #9
    MacLean's Avatar
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    Well, IANAL - but there is a recent constructive possession case that would seem to indicate you can't even let someone else shoot it in your presence.

    Obviously LEO status would be a defense.

    I also have heard the BATFE is looking into the legality of NFA trusts - as I said what they do has a lot to do with who is in office.

    Under Bush, they were defanged - as I think they should be. I personally believe all firearms laws should be handled by the States, but I'm a weirdo libertarian.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by 121Traffic View Post
    Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's the manufacture form. Who would I put on the transfer form, ya know? I'm transferring the lower receiver from myself...to myself?

    No, dumbass.

    You have a transferee right here!

  11. #11
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