Security Clearance issues

**Ken K** · 01-24-06, 03:36 PM

I recently had to research security clearances, and that's all I can say about it. j/k Interesting reading. While many of you with military experience are aware of the different levels, I am sure a lot of folks have no idea.

I found a great site for reading actual adjudications of security clearance appeals and the reason behind their thinking in granting or denying. Young people asking about their future should read some of this.

The site is http://www.defenselink.mil/dodgc/doha/industrial/

Here is an example of one I found interesting. The 2005 section is the best.

Alcohol; Criminal Conduct; Sexual Behavior

02/28/2005
This 34-year-old technician for a defense contractor had four alcohol-related arrests, citations, and/or convictions in 1991 and 1999. He underwent counseling and has not returned to his old habits. In April 2002, he was masturbating in his car, which was situated on the edge of a large parking lot, when police approached and found him just sitting there. He admitted having masturbated there. He and his wife were trying to have a child and their doctor suggested frequent ejaculations might stimulate sperm production. No one had seen him on any of the 20 occasions over a two-year period when he did it that way. There was no "sexual" aspect to his conduct and he has not done it again. Mitigation has been established. Clearance is granted.

Some with drug and alcohol abuse histories make it and some don't. Financial problems and foreign ties seem to be major hurdles.

Any thoughts from you in the know...without having to kill us of course.

**Virginian** · 01-24-06, 03:39 PM

One guy I knew wasn't able to get a clearance to work at the NSA due to drugs. He was most likely a major burnout in college though.

What about any... uhh... instances with say... a sheep? I'm not asking for myself, some guy told me to ask. When I said "how will I find you when I get the answer!?" he said "Ah'll be bock." But I will not reveal his identity.

**Ken K** · 01-24-06, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by Virginian

One guy I knew wasn't able to get a clearance to work at the NSA due to drugs. He was most likely a major burnout in college though.

What about any... uhh... instances with say... a sheep? I'm not asking for myself, some guy told me to ask. When I said "how will I find you when I get the answer!?" he said "Ah'll be bock." But I will not reveal his identity.

Sheep? Maybe a Confidential, but not Secret. Hell, the whole flock knows about it by now.

The question is...did he do it in the last 5 years!!!!!!!!!!

MountainCop · 01-24-06, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by Ken K

I recently had to research security clearances, and that's all I can say about it. j/k Interesting reading. While many of you with military experience are aware of the different levels, I am sure a lot of folks have no idea.
<snip>
Some with drug and alcohol abuse histories make it and some don't. Financial problems and foreign ties seem to be major hurdles.

Any thoughts from you in the know...without having to kill us of course.

Nah, we wouldn't kill ya - just bury ya!

As someone who has been trained to and used to adjudicate personnel for security clearances and special access programs, here's the criteria:

ARE YOU TRUSTWORTHY??

It's a judgement call. The training for adjudicators is extensive, and real cases (with no names) are presented. Basically, you get all the paperwork (statement of personal history, investigation results, polygraph results, etc), read and research it, and make a determination. Then you get your determination checked against the actual determination.

The individual you described - I would be checking out his story very carefully. If he was honest, I'd still be tempted to deny because you don't do that in a car. Demonstrates poor judgement.

As for the 'baaaaaa', if it was youthful experimentation (no older than 12-13 or so), only one or two incidents, several years have passed with no repeats and pretty much clean up his act, I'd grant it.

As for drugs, etc., the criteria is pretty much 'was it youthful experimentation?' Most everyone does a doobie or 3 in college. If it was a transient event, no harder drugs, and some time has passed since the use, and everything else checks out, I'd grant it.

MountainCop · 01-24-06, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by Ken K

Sheep? Maybe a Confidential, but not Secret. Hell, the whole flock knows about it by now.

The question is...did he do it in the last 5 years!!!!!!!!!!

Five? Hey, try 15 years back for an SBI, with ALL schools, even prior to 18 y/o.

I had 8 SBIs in 16 years with 3 polys (2 lifestyle, one security only) for different clearances with different federal agencies. Cleared for wierd.

I REALLY got tired of filling out all that f***ing paperwork...

MountainCop · 01-24-06, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by Virginian

One guy I knew wasn't able to get a clearance to work at the NSA due to drugs. He was most likely a major burnout in college though.

What about any... uhh... instances with say... a sheep? I'm not asking for myself, some guy told me to ask. When I said "how will I find you when I get the answer!?" he said "Ah'll be bock." But I will not reveal his identity.

Oh, and forgot to mention - since it's Term - DENIED, DENIED, DENIED!!

Not gonna even let him see UNCLASSIFIED!

**Virginian** · 01-24-06, 04:06 PM

:d

**Ken K** · 01-24-06, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by MountainCop

Five? Hey, try 15 years back for an SBI, with ALL schools, even prior to 18 y/o.

I had 8 SBIs in 16 years with 3 polys (2 lifestyle, one security only) for different clearances with different federal agencies. Cleared for wierd.

I REALLY got tired of filling out all that f***ing paperwork...

I was told if you applied for one of the super secret groups, they'd ask you who your grandmother dated!

MountainCop · 01-24-06, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by Ken K

I was told if you applied for one of the super secret groups, they'd ask you who your grandmother dated!

Damn near. You end up giving them three to five references you're not related to. They in turn ask each of your references for three references. And they interview your neighbors, co-workers, yada yada. They want each address you've lived at and every job you've worked back 15 years - no gaps more than 30 days. Any and all foreign travel - even to Canada and Mexico. Any friendships/relationships with non-US citizens - ever. Any relatives in a foreign country. All schools attended - back to your elementary school up to your last college class. Parents names and dates/places of birth. Any/all divorces. The list goes on.

**Virginian** · 01-25-06, 08:52 AM

My background investigation for the police department did all that too! Except the foreign travel/relationship part.

MountainCop · 01-25-06, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by Virginian

My background investigation for the police department did all that too! Except the foreign travel/relationship part.

I'll bet they took the 'criteria' from the Feds - especially since you're in Virginia. It's not like they can't get the forms off the Internet and figure it out

And I have to do one every 5 years for my Fed job - 'Position of Public Trust'. Since nothing has changed for me in the past 15 years, it's easy now

**TXCharlie** · 01-27-06, 02:42 AM

When I got my DoD Confidental clearence back 25 years ago it was a peice of cake. The Secret was a big pain in the butt because I had to remember all my neighbor's & friend's names and every job I ever had since High School. Also stirred up the neighbors a bit because the FBI came knocking on their door but would only tell them that it was a "routine investigation", so I had people all down the block asking me what I did.

Then came the "Customer Clearence" a few years later (customer being some unknown black project). I didn't pass that damn thing, and they wouldn't tell me why - They wouldn't even tell me who the investigator was so I could talk to him, but they implied it may have been a couple of bullshit religious meetings that a friend talked me into going to. I don't know why I even told them about it, because it wasn't long before I decided that everyone there was a bunch of looney-toons. My impression of it was that it was a borderline cult, and that's what I told 'em on my disclosure. That's what happens when you volunteer more info than you're asked. Since I didn't join, I was never a member - So I probably didn't even need to tell them about it.

MountainCop · 01-27-06, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by TXCharlie

When I got my DoD Confidental clearence back 25 years ago it was a peice of cake. The Secret was a big pain in the butt because I had to remember all my neighbor's & friend's names and every job I ever had since High School. Also stirred up the neighbors a bit because the FBI came knocking on their door but would only tell them that it was a "routine investigation", so I had people all down the block asking me what I did.

Then came the "Customer Clearence" a few years later (customer being some unknown black project). I didn't pass that damn thing, and they wouldn't tell me why - They wouldn't even tell me who the investigator was so I could talk to him, but they implied it may have been a couple of bullshit religious meetings that a friend talked me into going to. I don't know why I even told them about it, because it wasn't long before I decided that everyone there was a bunch of looney-toons. My impression of it was that it was a borderline cult, and that's what I told 'em on my disclosure. That's what happens when you volunteer more info than you're asked. Since I didn't join, I was never a member - So I probably didn't even need to tell them about it.

I think you're right - if you didn't join, and only went to a few meetings, no use in telling them.

Funny thing is, I am aware of a person who had a high level (same type as what you mention) clearance who WAS a member of an extremely 'cultish' religious group - signed her check over to the group, all that stuff. It didn't affect her clearance, since the right of freedom of religion took precedence.

From what I heard, she finally wised up and got the hell out of the group.

If you want a real surprise, and some interesting reading, file a FOIA request for any/all information about you with those Agencies - it will include results of investigations. I got one reply yesterday - found out who was naughty and who was nice ;<) Of course, they redacted a lot of it.

**Ken K** · 01-27-06, 10:19 AM

Well, two things I have learned or at least heard. One, the investigator tells contacts that what they say will be made available to the applicant through a FOIA request. You think that would motivate them to tell only fact, but who knows.

Second, the majority of the information which results in a denial of clearance comes directly from the applicant in the interview, not the background check.

How's that sound Mountaincop?

**213th** · 01-27-06, 02:07 PM

I know someone with a top secret clearance. When you initially go up for it they ask him if he had used drugs in the past ten years. When they do the process to renew the clearence, they asked him if he had EVER used. He answered no to the past ten years one, and yes to ever having been used. They yanked his clearance for lying. It took him two years to get it re-instated.

MountainCop · 01-27-06, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by Ken K

Well, two things I have learned or at least heard. One, the investigator tells contacts that what they say will be made available to the applicant through a FOIA request. You think that would motivate them to tell only fact, but who knows.

Second, the majority of the information which results in a denial of clearance comes directly from the applicant in the interview, not the background check.

How's that sound Mountaincop?

You are basically correct. However, if a contact wishes to remain anonymous, they will sometimes honor that. And so, the copy you recieve in a FOIA request will have that part redacted.

IMHO, unless there is a very good reason to remain anonymous, 'confidential' interviews should be taken with a grain of salt.

MountainCop · 01-27-06, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by 213th

I know someone with a top secret clearance. When you initially go up for it they ask him if he had used drugs in the past ten years. When they do the process to renew the clearence, they asked him if he had EVER used. He answered no to the past ten years one, and yes to ever having been used. They yanked his clearance for lying. It took him two years to get it re-instated.

Sounds like business as usual for the Feds - change the question, and zing you when you're honest about it.

**TXCharlie** · 01-27-06, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by 213th

I know someone with a top secret clearance

Actually he probably shouldn't have revealed that to you, unless you work closely with him & had a "need to know" that he had the clearance - Otherwise, you need to go have your brain erased

I believe having a Top Secret clearence is a secret in itself (at least that's what I was told way back when when I had to take the class on all that stuff).

**TXCharlie** · 01-27-06, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by MountainCop

Sounds like business as usual for the Feds - change the question, and zing you when you're honest about it.

Yeah, and if you have emotional problems, you can never have them treated - But as long as you aren't diagnosed & treated for your mental defects, you're ok.

**213th** · 01-27-06, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by TXCharlie

Actually he probably shouldn't have revealed that to you, unless you work closely with him & had a "need to know" that he had the clearance - Otherwise, you need to go have your brain erased

I believe having a Top Secret clearence is a secret in itself (at least that's what I was told way back when when I had to take the class on all that stuff).

well, I guess that is on him then...*shrugs*