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  1. #21
    Retdetsgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThisGlock40
    Not to get to personal and if you feel this in inappropriate for the Non-Verified section don't answer here, but have any of you been to an autoerotic accidental suicide? How common is it?
    It runs in cycles. In the mid 80's, it got popular on college campuses and we had several accidental deaths from that. A couple of colleges here, actually published bulletins warning against it. Then they slowed down for several years.

    One interesting one I had was a woman. Always before they'd been male, but on this one my partner and I initially thought we had a homicide. The woman was on the bed, pants down and an electrical cord around her neck. Knee jerk reaction was it was a sexual assault-homicide. But as we started really examining the body closely we realized that she had been strangling herself.

    Hanging, at least in this area seems to be done mostly by teenagers. Being a gun society, guns are probably used here a lot more than in Europe. But women here also tend to chose OD as their method of suicide.

    I think a lot of suicides that go unreported as such are done in automobiles. Several of my friends in traffic division have told me of strange one car fatal accidents where it appears the driver intentionally ran into an embankment or something at high speed.
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  2. #22
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    Sarge if they call 911 they want help, if they pull the trigger they were serious......

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThisGlock40
    My thoughts on the subject: If you are going kill yourself, you would just go out and do it. Not contact anyone that can stop you...
    I agree. Seems that these people are really trying to get attention, whether it be good or bad. I can't relate to suicide, life has never gotten that bad. I can understand why some people would think that was thier only option though. That is the sad part. At least these people have a way to at least if nothing else, communicate thier feelings to another.
    The world is a mighty clear place once the wool is removed from ones eyes

  4. #24
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    Just received confirmation the child is dead. He was 14. Ugh, this never gets any easier.

    Thanks for your responses. For those that think suicide is spur of the moment...don't be fooled. There are many pro suicide sites on the web and many suicides are actually planned. Most will try the weak attempt first like overdosing but that fails often. It is the first attempt that is drama and unplanned, after that....these folks work on plans. As for attention? Well, let me put it another way.....it is like me saying to a cop "so why didn't you just shoot him in the foot?" As annoying as that question is to LE, the attention statement is just as annoying. Yes there are attention seekers but even many of those eventually take their life. Don't underestimate your local nutcase. Sad thing is that suicide pacts and suicide by cop have become very popular methods. If you had any idea how many folks I talk out of that a day you would be shocked. Many suicidal folks have been committed at least once so they cannot purchase a gun and thus involving another in their action has become a top method.

    Ok, rant over and I do hope none of you ever faces such trauma as no one wins. Thanks again for all your replys.

  5. #25
    Retdetsgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mem
    Thanks for your responses. For those that think suicide is spur of the moment...don't be fooled. There are many pro suicide sites on the web and many suicides are actually planned. Most will try the weak attempt first like overdosing but that fails often. It is the first attempt that is drama and unplanned, after that....these folks work on plans.
    How do you know that a large number of suicides aren't spur of the moment? What kind of training and experience do you have in suicides other than monitoring an Internet site? As I said, I've investigated and/or reviewed over a hundred suicides so I do think I have a little knowledge about the subject.

    The only people who can provide info as to whether or not it was planned are the survivors. And by definition, they aren't all that qualified. When an elderly person takes a dive off a three story balcony and all the people there say she was distraught over not being able to find a 20 dollar bill, I hardly think that would be considered a planned suicide. When a teenager hangs himself because his girl friend left him, same thing.

    I suspect that the people you have contact with on the Internet plan suicides to ad nauseum. By definition, they are consummate planners or they wouldn't be playing around on those boards.

    There are a lot of people who suffer from clinical depression for whatever reason and go through life never considering suicide at all until they get that "last straw". Admittedly they are troubled to begin with or there wouldn't be a "last straw", but to say they are all planned in advance is baloney. The successful suicides know how to do it effectively and demonstrate it. Driving your car into an embankment, putting a gun in your mouth or jumping from a high place is almost always effective. As far as attention getting devices, I don't know about that. Maybe it is and maybe they aren't all that dedicated to the idea of suicide to begin with.

    When you say "Most will try the weak attempt first like overdosing but that fails often" are you referring to everyone who commits or attempts suicide or the people you converse with on your boards. What do you base that statement on? I will grant you that there are people who talk about suicide, attempt it several times and are finally successful, but I doubt seriously they are the majority. In fact, of the investigations I have been involved in regarding successful suicides, it's been rare that there was a previous history of attempts. In fact, almost all the time, friends and family were stunned by the suicide. They will generally say the person was having a lot of trouble in their lives, but few realized that the person was that desparate or considering such a move.
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  6. #26
    deputy29 is offline Master Officer
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    Most suicides are spur of the moment. If they are calling a hot line or on the internet either they are asking for help or want notice. Those that are termanily ill are an exception. I've beat cancer twice now and if I ever find out I have it and won't be able to beat it I have a plan. My family and friends know this and though they may not agree they will understand. Those who try to commit suicide, no matter what way, are generally asking for help. Those who are serious will get the job done no matter what the means. Also those that do commit suicide and have called a help line usually want those they leave behind to feel guilty or they didn't mean to die.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retdetsgt
    How do you know that a large number of suicides aren't spur of the moment? What kind of training and experience do you have in suicides other than monitoring an Internet site? As I said, I've investigated and/or reviewed over a hundred suicides so I do think I have a little knowledge about the subject.

    The only people who can provide info as to whether or not it was planned are the survivors. And by definition, they aren't all that qualified. When an elderly person takes a dive off a three story balcony and all the people there say she was distraught over not being able to find a 20 dollar bill, I hardly think that would be considered a planned suicide. When a teenager hangs himself because his girl friend left him, same thing.

    I suspect that the people you have contact with on the Internet plan suicides to ad nauseum. By definition, they are consummate planners or they wouldn't be playing around on those boards.

    There are a lot of people who suffer from clinical depression for whatever reason and go through life never considering suicide at all until they get that "last straw". Admittedly they are troubled to begin with or there wouldn't be a "last straw", but to say they are all planned in advance is baloney. The successful suicides know how to do it effectively and demonstrate it. Driving your car into an embankment, putting a gun in your mouth or jumping from a high place is almost always effective. As far as attention getting devices, I don't know about that. Maybe it is and maybe they aren't all that dedicated to the idea of suicide to begin with.

    When you say "Most will try the weak attempt first like overdosing but that fails often" are you referring to everyone who commits or attempts suicide or the people you converse with on your boards. What do you base that statement on? I will grant you that there are people who talk about suicide, attempt it several times and are finally successful, but I doubt seriously they are the majority. In fact, of the investigations I have been involved in regarding successful suicides, it's been rare that there was a previous history of attempts. In fact, almost all the time, friends and family were stunned by the suicide. They will generally say the person was having a lot of trouble in their lives, but few realized that the person was that desparate or considering such a move.
    Top comment, adding my own little bit we get as much counceling/therapy and mental health training as we do first-aid/self defence and physical all together. Its a big part of our training.
    Quote Originally Posted by TXCharlie
    Hey thanks Garda - I did think of you last night as I was lying in bed

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retdetsgt
    How do you know that a large number of suicides aren't spur of the moment? What kind of training and experience do you have in suicides other than monitoring an Internet site?

    The only people who can provide info as to whether or not it was planned are the survivors.

    When you say "Most will try the weak attempt first like overdosing but that fails often" are you referring to everyone who commits or attempts suicide or the people you converse with on your boards. What do you base that statement on?
    I have to agree,....what experience/training do you have MEM, and what do you base this on?

  9. #29
    Indy Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Retdetsgt
    I will grant you that there are people who talk about suicide, attempt it several times and are finally successful, but I doubt seriously they are the majority. In fact, of the investigations I have been involved in regarding successful suicides, it's been rare that there was a previous history of attempts.
    Well said RDS. I often wonder if that last "successful" attempt in a long line of attempts was an accident....a cry for help that went too far. They thought they'd wake up and be ok, like the other times, but this time they went too far. What's your take on this?

  10. #30
    Retdetsgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy
    Well said RDS. I often wonder if that last "successful" attempt in a long line of attempts was an accident....a cry for help that went too far. They thought they'd wake up and be ok, like the other times, but this time they went too far. What's your take on this?
    That's a reasonable assumption, I think. Unlike Mem, police rarely deal with the unsuccessful attempts. Unless they do something dramatic in public, there is no reason for the police to be involved. They may well be like the autoerotic deaths that are accidental.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retdetsgt
    Driving your car into an embankment, putting a gun in your mouth or jumping from a high place is almost always effective.
    Retdetsgt, I heard that when someone shoots themselves in the mouth the bullet often bounces off the hard palate and the suicide fails. Ever hear of that in your investigations? I heard that shooting into the ear is the only 100% method, but that it's rarely done. Not sure if that's a myth or not.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimby
    Retdetsgt, I heard that when someone shoots themselves in the mouth the bullet often bounces off the hard palate and the suicide fails. Ever hear of that in your investigations? I heard that shooting into the ear is the only 100% method, but that it's rarely done. Not sure if that's a myth or not.
    It would have to be a pretty tiny caliber gun with old gunpowder to not penetrate the palate. The bone isn't that thick. The mouth is a pretty good entry point, especially if they hit the brain stem. That stops all involuntary functions such as heart and breathing.

    One of the few unsuccessful attempts by shooting themselves in the head, unfortunately was an officer with my dept. He put a .22 to his temple and effectively only gave himself a lobotomy. The bullet disconnected the frontal lobes of his brain. He did die a few years later in a nursing home from other health complications.
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  13. #33
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    Met a guy at the local VA, when I was doing research in college, who did the .22 to the temple and effectively cut his corpus callosum. He was pretty content after that but he did spend the rest of his life at the hospital.

  14. #34
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    It is very interesting to get the LE perspective and it is educational. I think the term of "spur of the moment" is being interpreted differently here. I see why Le who investigate use that term as when the "trigger" phase occurs, the person begins to act on thier thoughts. To the outside I suppose that looks like they just decided in a split section to take their life.

    What I was attempting to say is that many of these people had the thoughts prior to and thought out their actions. It then sits dormiant you could say until there is a trigger. That could be a trauma, a loss of a loved one or something that appears so very insignificant. The trigger is often not the cause, just the spark. As for people being shocked someone took their life, well, most people don't always know the signs and sometimes, even if you are trained to, you can still miss them. I think more and more people are losing their coping skills and thoughts of flee vs fight are becoming more common these days.

    The thread was prompted by a death on the net but that is only one of many outlets troubled people turn to. Hotlines, therapy, support groups are still the main source but it is amazing to see how many young people turn to the net instead of their parents, friends, doctors. I deal with multiple offline outlets and my perspective is simply based on those experiences as well as the net sources. I am no Dr. Phil but helping others is important to me. Thanks.

  15. #35
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    Is there a forum address where we could see for ourselves what kind of advice is given, etc? I'm curious how it's moderated, controled, and advertised, as well as who is giving the advise.

  16. #36
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    I am not comfortable posting links to sites like that as it could be viewed as encouraging the sites. The public pro sites are easily found on google and are not monitored at all so get some popcorn and enjoy as they are dangerous and discuss methods.

    The pro life one I deal with is heavily monitored to prevent trolls from promoting suicide and methods. There is a mixture of professionals and peer counselors. It is made very clear this is not a replacement for professional help. Members are strongly encouraged to see a doctor, talk to family. The point of the site is for people to have a place to say the word "suicide" and not be locked up for it. But the atmosphere is very protective and supportive and keeping people from harming themselves is what the goal is.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mem
    It then sits dormiant you could say until there is a trigger. That could be a trauma, a loss of a loved one or something that appears so very insignificant. The trigger is often not the cause, just the spark. As for people being shocked someone took their life, well, most people don't always know the signs and sometimes, even if you are trained to, you can still miss them.
    Right, I agree. The trigger though is the last thing in a series of events and is usually seems fairly unimportant to anyone outside that person's head. But I can say from some personal experience that the trigger may suddenly make the idea of suicide a viable solution to said series of events. For whatever reason, survival instincts or something, people seem to be able to handle big tragedies better than a series of small ones. The body can go into some sort of emergency mode for large events, but little ones will often wear them down if there are other mental problems present.

    An example would be when I was in the army, suicide was rare among soldiers in combat. They were able to deal with the stress at the time. However, years later, the post traumatic stress will cause depression that seems inescapable. Then a broken television may be enough to make that person just say the hell with it, I'm tired of fighting life. Suicide could well have never been considered until that moment, but then it becomes viable and reasonable.

    I also understand that friends and family usually don't see the signs, but I was addressing the remark about people often making numerous attempts before being successful. In my experience, there are rarely previous attempts prior to a successful suicide. Friends and family would have known of these, no doubt. Committing suicide really isn't that difficult if the person is serious about it. I'm not enough of a psychologist to say they are just trying to get attention, but I would say that they are not all that dedicated to the idea of actually dying.

    I realize the thread was started because of the failure to prevent one. You have to remember that you are only responsible for the effort, not the results. You have no control over much of anything in life except your attitude about it.
    Last edited by Retdetsgt; 01-27-06 at 04:11 PM.
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  18. #38
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    Mental wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Mem
    The pro life one I deal with is heavily monitored to prevent trolls from promoting suicide and methods. There is a mixture of professionals and peer counselors. It is made very clear this is not a replacement for professional help. Members are strongly encouraged to see a doctor, talk to family. The point of the site is for people to have a place to say the word "suicide" and not be locked up for it. But the atmosphere is very protective and supportive and keeping people from harming themselves is what the goal is.
    Surely it should be freely available so people can find it at ease?

    Personally I think the helplines/etc are for people that need help but instead of pulling the trigger etc have decided to seek that help. Theres a distinct difference, no one that has decided genuinely to commit suicide advertises it. To simplify, poeple think "Things are bad I dont want to go on feeling /l living like this anymore" and then split, A says "Im going to kill myself" and B says "I need help"

    Dont get me wrong, I support these lines/sites and if they help then they are well worth effort and time but please try to remember, you can only help so much and no one person can save the world. I guarantee you will end up ringing a helpline yourself if you dont build the mental wall required.
    Quote Originally Posted by TXCharlie
    Hey thanks Garda - I did think of you last night as I was lying in bed

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mem
    The thread was prompted by a death on the net
    Just out of curiosity, how do you know if the person even did it? It seems like any troll could come along to a site like that, type convincing stuff and then say, "I'm going to do it now. Bye..." And you'd never know whether they actually did or not.

    Am I misunderstanding something, like they gave their name and then the next day you saw an article in the paper confirming it?

  20. #40
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    In regards to multiple attempts. The attempts are not always public and often are almost a "try" but is still dangerious. It is not uncommon for attempts at overdosing and cutting that are superficial. What I mean is that people try taking several pills only to wake up the next morning. Yes it is a weak attempt but the fact they try is what I mean when I say it is not always so unplanned and some actually experiment almost with methods. Not always will family members know of these attempts. As we know, often parents are not aware the child has weapons, drugs etc until sometimes too late.

    In regards to the sites/help lines, they serve there purpose for some. Sometimes just talking is all a person needs to help them decide to seek real life professional help. The services are often a stepping stone to get people the help they need. Just because someone calls a hotline does not mean they will not attempt. But yes, it is a good sign they want help. It is not uncommon for people to contact the police even simply to hope for intervention. I don't hear that too often but that it does occur.

 

 
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