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11-22-08, 12:27 AM #1Banned
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Camaraderie - - What ever happened to it?????
I am a retired Metro Officer and served over 30 years on the force.
I want to know, 'What ever happened to the camaraderie we used to have? More
important is how do they get it back an dbuild on it?
I left in 2000 and the closeness and unity we had was headed down hill swiftly. Although we never could get a large amount of members to the monthly association meetings, even this was in dire distress. I had not been to a lot party in months as no one wanted to meet afterwards or go to our local watering hole owned by a retired officer. Even NOW, the only officers that show up even once a month or more are retired officers like
myself. I only go once or twice a month but they all say the same thing, NO active officers ever show up and most don't know what a lot party is. We used to BBQ on duty on very slow nights and answer each others calls IF the other officer is busy.
You would NEVER make a statement to IAD (Internal Affairs Div) without a Rep or Lawyer. IF, we did make statements, all the officers involved got together prior to get our statements together for everyones protection. NOW, the separate and conquer and the idiots on, don't get representation or plan or they can't wait to talk and put the blame on another cop. It is a terrible shame and bad predicament!! I am not talking Felong Crimes or major incidents but everyday complaints....
Will there EVER be unity and camaraderie again, hell, even other depts don't give another cop or dept member any breaks on any form of contact. I remember getting stopped many times going home from work and doing minor traffic violations as if we were still in the police car and getting a wave off as we did to all other cops. FORGET IT TODAY!!
If anyone has an idea or solution and maybe resolve this situation, could do a lot of good for the occupation and head it in the right direction. Thanks for letting me vent!
You ALL take care and be safe out there!!! C. Y. A.
11-22-08, 01:43 AM #2
I think it varies on departments. I think there is a strong tie with some and not so much with others, I think its a case by case basis.Somebody Please, what the hell is that smell?
"The difference between 'involvement' and 'commitment' is like an eggs-and-ham breakfast: the chicken was 'involved' - the pig was 'committed'."
The views, opinions, stupid off the cuff comments, mouthy, obnoxious, thoughtless, etc etc etc are not always or even some of the time the belief of my department, so bugger off!
11-22-08, 01:45 AM #3
Big, I think you answered the question with your last statement: C.Y.A.
Camaraderie still exists, at least at the department I work with, but I think too many folks in LE are worried about what will come back to bite them in the ass later.--"D.B.A.D." --Me
--Life's tough...it's tougher if you're stupid.
--"Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." -Elbert Hubbard
11-22-08, 02:29 AM #4Chief Wheaties PisserVerified LEO
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More and more young officers go back to their lives and their lives don't revolve around choir practices. More family oriented officers or older officers are in our careers and focus on those this rather than the camaradrie, on or off duty.
Yes, it exists but unfortunately in my agency, it is cliquish and hardly inclusive (unless you like to drink, don't have kids and golf - meaning 0 for 3 for me and that's just fine).
Tack on guys who are going back to school or involved in activities outside of LE work. Hell, a perfect example is PPC. Huge events in the 60s and 70s. Today, it is a dying sport for cops.
11-22-08, 04:17 AM #5
I don't think it's unique to LE. I think it's disappeared in the corporate world as well.
My mother belonged to a softball team at work when I was a kid. When she worked for the Navy, her command had an annual Christmas party, and picnic.
When I was in the corporate world, there was lots of socializing, as well as planned fundraisers for different causes.
I think we've become much more insular, which is very sad.Molly Weasley makes Chuck Norris eat his vegetables.
Do not puff, shade, skew, tailor, firm up, stretch, massage,
or otherwise distort statements of fact.FBI Special Agent Coleen Rowley
11-22-08, 04:20 AM #6
There is also an increasing disconnect between the retired officer and those in service.I'm your huckleberry...
Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!
You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.
I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
but every girl I found was either one way or the other...
11-22-08, 04:28 AM #7
Camaraderie must be promoted from within. If it is not taught then it is not learned. I have and am in charge of, along with a Lt., a great shift. Strong personalities, each of them. None of which were hand selected. We received what was issued. Each with their own lives. My guys are smart, pro active and have a decent work ethic.
I have passed on to them what I have been taught. Had I not done that they would not have learned. There are two mandatory rules for someone assigned to my shift. Unforgiving rules. These rules are issued the moment of the first day. What goes on on my shift stays on my shift. If I am down in the ditch getting my ass kicked you better be down here getting your ass kicked with me. Everything else can be learned. Camaraderie is not something that is issued out with the equipment. It must be taught, and nurtured, most of the time by example. I think our younger officers are often over looked by the older generation who are set in our ways. The younger officer is often victim to their own generation of lifestyles. If they are not shown management of personal life and LEO values the lesson will never be passed on.
With no disrespect intended, I am too old to hang with the young folk, and to young to fit in with the older crowd. The 40's seem to be the limbo years. My shift and I do not consistantly "hang" off duty. However, I have tried to fit in most camaraderie time while on duty, and some off. We don't have a lot in common. Still I feel it is my duty to my fellow officers to exhibit qualities that will keep us united.
We do not have unions, organizations and such. If camaraderie is lacking in professional relationships it is up to each of us to promote it. Not wait for it to foster on its own.
Just my humble opinion.Do not war for peace. If you must war, war for justice. For without justice there is no peace. -me
We are who we choose to be.
R.I.P. Arielle. 08/20/2010-09/16/2012
11-22-08, 04:32 AM #8
"There is also an increasing disconnect between the retired officer and those in service".
From the retired side - yep. Chiefs, Commanders, Union or Guild board members forget that they too will retire.Some people come into our lives and quickly go. Some stay for awhile and leave footprints on our hearts. And we are never, ever the same.-- Anonymous
Old People, like me, may not be around to witness the destruction of our Nation. The rest of you may not survive the collapse. We all have the sworn duty to prevent it.
The light of hope burns brighter than the fires of doom.
11-22-08, 10:35 AM #9
11-22-08, 11:42 AM #10
Camaraderie, sadly is not like it used to be. Saw it even before I retired, in the NYPD, it started after they went to steady tours. The brass likes it this way, they helped push comaraderie away. Not helping is the new mentality of the younger generation, the ME, MYSELF and I generation.
11-22-08, 07:33 PM #11
Some of the younger generation has the "me, myself, and i" mentality, but theres also a portion of that segment that really want to be a part of a cohesive unit like they've heard of. Problem is that many that are of the more veteran variety themselves are seeing the advancement of their careers as more important than "esprit de corps". I think that's where the admin problems are created. So the veterans are not teaching the young guys the ways that things have been done for ages. Don't be so quick to blame it on the young guys! There's a lot of fault floating around in this area. Police culture is indeed a culture. Cultures get passed down from generation to generation. That's not happening hardly at all anymore in departments. The values and mores now are being left for each officer to decide on his/her own.CHIRP! CHIRP!
11-22-08, 08:36 PM #12
I know what you mean. Back in '81 we built a new range that included a BBQ pit, also a "clubhouse" that had a pool table. We used it alot, barbequed all kinds of meat, including a goat, and had lots of fun and commradarie. The range and clubhouse is still there and used, but not for get togethers, the pit and table are long gone. I wish that I had an answer for where the commraderie went but I don't, hell there's only 2 of us that are still here that were on when we built the range. We have quite a few officers that I've been a cop longer than they've been alive. Their "commraderie" is very cliquish and generally for on duty only. I miss those times, the choir practices as they were called, just thinking about it brings back some good memories.
11-23-08, 09:59 AM #13
I posted a thread about this very subject when I first joined the board. I am a big supporter of the brotherhood and "choir practices" in that I think it fosters close bonds and thus better for work in the job. And by choir practice I dont just mean drinkin' and women chasing but just the thought that people got together and got to know one another...support each other during hard times and good etc.
We have some on my rotation now...we get together twice a month for football, wings, beer and soda. We make fun of each other, laugh and have a good time. But only my sgt and I usually show up from our squad.
I train the ones new to LE. I find that for most of them this is just a job...they dont seem to have any concept of brotherhood. I have seen people climb over another just to make promotion. I think a lot of it does have to do with admin...it has gotten to be a lot of save your own job if you dont rat someone out. It creates a feeling of animosity and destroys unity.
I dont know...I guess I am just an odd duck. I believe in the brotherhood..we have each other to keep us safe, watch our backs and make sure we make it back safe each and every night to our families. I may not like everyone personally but I'll be damned if I would not give them everything I have with my last damn breath to keep them safe. Can't say the same for everyone.Never be afraid to do what's right, especially if the well-being of a person or animal is at stake. Society's punishments are small compared to the wounds we inflict on our soul when we look the other way" ~Martin Luther King, Jr
11-23-08, 12:41 PM #14
I, too, have definitely struggled with this as of the last couple of years. Sports was a big part of my upbringing. There I learned, and learned to love, the feeling of being a part of a group. My first LE job was at a smaller department. Camadarie was good and I worked with a great group of people. A couple of years ago I moved on to a different, larger department. Definitely a different fee. It's kind of like having just an "office" relationship with those I work with. It definitely affects the way you think about "the job."I'm not ruining your life, you are, and I'm just going to write a short story about it.
11-23-08, 05:44 PM #15What's the nearest cross street?Verified LEO
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I suppose this ties in with what has already been posted. I like the guys on my shift and we work well together, but the officers who are big with the camaradership tend to be the ones who are in with the clique. I for one have never done well with cliques so when my shift is over I go home to my family.
Also in the past eight years it's been my observation (regarding my department) that the folks who always seem to be involved with all the off duty shenanigans don't last. Eventually something happens and they either resign or get fired.
It isn't hard to figure out that the best way to have a long career is to go to work, keep my nose clean and go the hell home. When we socialize it's with friends who aren't cops.I'm low key and therefore not on anybody's radar. That's okay with me.
It's also my opinion that the camardership is overrated. It's more about being part of a clique and those who aren't get left out. When on duty if one of the golden children need help I'm one my way and vice versa.That isn't the issue. But when we moved into our house nobody showed up to help. So I'm not a big believer in the Brotherhood. I believe much of it is a creation of novelists and television/movies.
I saw and experienced the same thing in the Army. Lots of talk about the Army "family" and the Brotherhood of Arms, but people were fairly selective about who got to be part of the Brotherhood.
11-24-08, 09:51 AM #16
Also one thing at my department......some of the guys/gals at my department are the kinds that I DON'T want camaraderie with. By that I mean that we have some officers that are the types of people that I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire. Just really bad people. No morals, self centered, trying to bed every other officers' wives, waiting for the first chance to stab anyone in the back. It's widespread. Hard to want to have a sense of brotherhood with people like that. Don't get me wrong, I'm starving for the sense of brotherhood that I hear of in other places, and that I see on tv and in movies. My department makes me wonder if that concept is just fantasy.CHIRP! CHIRP!
11-24-08, 10:18 AM #17
my 2 cents
Even being the 7th female to start in our dept back in 90; there was camaraderie among the guys & myself. Working c shift, we got off @1am, and most of the shift would just hang out back of the pd & talk until 2-sometimes 3. Working a shift was the same.. a small group of us would go to breakfast, or yes, since we were all so young, play quarters for a bit (chior practice), then crash.
That has diminished over the years... the older you get, other responsibilities take over: cont education, marriage, kids, etc. Bonding w/ fellow workers takes a back seat. I think its a natural progression. Of course, as we all get older, wiser, we are going to hang out w/ those we get along with, our chosen "friends" (ie: could be considered click) more so than "all" because in our busy lives nowadays, our time is valuable.
Plus, as one progresses in thier career, especially to rank, but @ our pd, even to the DB, the re's separation. Not saying that those in different avenues don't interact, but it's more like DB people hang out w/ the others in DB, road patrol hangs out w/thier group of friends on road, and heaven forbid if you're still an officer & assigned to an admin position; youre ostricized from everyone, moreso of those on the road. I think some of it is "not seen, so forgotten" if you dont interact w/ the group on a daily basis too.
I used to be in charge of organizing the dept holiday get together & i stopped about 5 years ago. Why? Road patrol never came. If rank & file (who always attended) are there, road patrol , for the most part, will not. I think the idea id out there, that anythingyou may do or say that could be interpreted as "inappropraite" by whichever supv, will bite you in the ass later, even tho @ the party, you're obviously off duty. Not worth the hassle of "if's", so stay away.
It is what it is. So, now, if someone wants a holiday party, they organize it, and invite who they want.
Look at it this way... do you get along or hang out w/ all of your relatives? Surely theres one or two you don't; even if they're local to you. So, you hang out w/ the cousins, aunts, uncles, that you like. The police dept is your other family, & the dynamics are similiar.Youre not gonna get along, or even like, everyone, so you pick & choose who you get along with, who you can trust & respect, and someone who compliments you and even helps @ work.
My humble opinion is theres the "old school" like me and many of us here, and the "new school" of police; which I term the "me" society. Even in police work, it is the age of entitelment, these young new kids expecting & demanding the same rights & benefits as the senior people. No one goes out of their way anymore to help anyone, not even a fellow officer. If theres not "something in it for me" then why should I? Old timer gets a new car.. new kid says well i should get a new car too; why "DO I" get stuck w/ the old crappy car?
How dare they even ask?? When i grad ; you be glad you got what you got, and grateful! I had an old car, at least i didnt have to use my gas to get to work everyday. (we have a take home car program) This last bunch grad... the top kid of the 5 had the nerve to tell, NOT EVEN ASK, the quartermaster "I graduated top & was hired before those other 4, so I get to pick the one i want, the newest car of the bunch." I was appalled when she told me that.
The new guys demand & expected to be treated w/ the same respect as the old timers, and the funny thing is, they haven't learned respected isn't automatically given, it's earned. 1/2 these new guys (and gals) have such a blasted ego & chip on thier shoulder..
when it comes to contract neg; all they see is dollar signs, and not the whole picture (future, retirement, whole package) they werent around to see when us old timers gave up raises for the 3 years of a contract, to ensure the insurance was paid for by the city. (Obviously, thats changed now, w/ the number of officers we have.)
the guys on the road do stuff now (like little kids) I'd never dreamed of doing.. a kid will ask his sgt for a day off. sgt says no, were down to minimum. kid goes to another sgt (his friend) and says i couldnt find my sgt, can you post me off on this day.. and the friend sgt will post him as off, which brings the squad down to below minimum, and then they have to pull a guy from another div (k-9 or traffic, community affairs) to cover the road. Its bs. theres more stories of sneaky stuff going on.. but police work has def changed, and all i can say is im very glad im on the downslide, and not just starting my career. I def do not like what i see.
thanx for letting me vent too! lol ;-)
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