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  1. #1
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    pgg
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    The Gun Control Madness starts

    Here we go. What a load of crap!!!

    Oakland officers' slayings reignite gun control debate - Inside Bay Area

    By Josh Richman
    Oakland Tribune
    Posted: 03/23/2009 07:39:01 PM PDT
    Updated: 03/24/2009 07:47:35 AM PDT

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    * Editorial: Oakland officers embodied courage and bravery
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    * Mar 21:
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    * Three police sergeants dead, suspect killed in East Oakland gunbattles

    The slayings of four Oakland police officers by a felon with an assault weapon and a semi-automatic handgun Saturday seems to be reigniting the gun-control debate.

    California has what many call the nation's most stringent assault-weapon ban, as well as other laws that prohibited Lovelle Mixon from possessing the guns he used to kill four officers and wound a fifth. Former state Senate President Pro Tem Don Perata, D-Oakland who in 1999 expanded the state's ban from a list of specific makes and models to any semi-automatic rifles and pistols with certain characteristics said Monday the weekend's carnage underscores the need to reinstate and expand a federal ban.

    "It's still far too easy to import weapons into the state of California," he said. "You would think that now, perhaps with this kind of incident, and with a very strong majority of Democrats in both chambers of Congress and an urban president from Chicago, maybe there's an opportunity to pass a characteristic ban nationally, which I think would be the most important thing we could do."

    But Chuck Michel, a civil rights attorney representing the California Rifle and Pistol Association, said such talk is "political opportunism at its worst," in furtherance of flawed public policy.

    "That this criminal who was prohibited from having guns at all was able to get whatever rifle he had "... is a monument to the failure of gun-control laws," Michel said. "There's at least
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    a half a dozen laws I can think of "... that this guy (Mixon) broke. So Don Perata's solution is let's throw another law on top of the pile and call it a day? The legacy of California's assault weapons law is inadvertent violations and no effect on crime."

    Besides California's assault-weapons ban, state law prohibits anyone with a felony conviction from owning and possessing a firearm; violating this law is itself a felony, punishable by 16, 24 or 36 months in state prison.

    A federal assault-weapons ban was enacted in 1994, barring sale to civilians of certain semi-automatic firearms. It expired in September 2004, and efforts to revive it have failed. U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder last month repeated the Obama administration's hope to reinstate the ban, but 65 House Democrats on Wednesday wrote to Holder saying they would oppose such an effort.

    U.S. Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., co-authored the 1994 ban and has said she'll carry legislation to bring it back in some form. "She is working on a bill but right now is a time for mourning," Feinstein spokesman Gil Duran said Monday.

    Rep. Barbara Lee, D-Oakland, said on the House floor Monday that the tragedy should force Congress to "re-examine how we are addressing the ongoing violence that plagues our communities," in part by renewing efforts "to ban the sale of military-style assault weapons in this country. It's hard enough being a cop in this country, without the added pressure of knowing that there could be assault rifles embedded throughout our communities.

    "We cannot bring back these brave men, but through the examples of their deaths, we can work to put in place policies that will make our communities safer for not only the people who live there, but also the people who serve those communities," Lee said.

    But Michel said California's assault-weapon ban has been in place for almost 20 years, "so obviously that didn't work. As we keep passing laws to make us feel good and give us a false sense of security, we're really not addressing some of the underlying problems that gangs and drugs and violent felon criminals present society. Politicians can pass things that get their names in the papers, but in the meantime, the scene on the streets that police officers face doesn't change."

    "The bottom line is: You can ban all the guns you want but the bans don't work, and even if they stopped someone from getting one type of a gun, the bad guy will get a different type of gun," he said. "Any firearm in the wrong hands is a powerful weapon and I want to do anything we can to keep these out of the hands of criminals. There are already laws on the books to prevent that, and now we have to enforce them"
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    A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. Sigmund Freud

  2. #2
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    Classic. A libtard could care less that cops died or that the VAST majority of cops in our nation are pro-gun. They'd step on dead bodies to get their legislation through.

    In the end, it could spell their demise.

  3. #3
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    Yeah, like this moron would have bought his gun at a dealer anyway.

    Other than some domestic cases, I can't recall hardly any cases where the killer didn't buy the gun on the street.....
    When I used to be somebody (I'm center top)

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  4. #4
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    Did California's 'stringent' gun-control laws work in this incident?

    Does this lead us to believe that 'more stringent' laws (banning more firearms) would?

    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
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    Quote Originally Posted by countybear View Post
    Did California's 'stringent' gun-control laws work in this incident?

    Does this lead us to believe that 'more stringent' laws (banning more firearms) would?
    Of course those stringent laws don't work if the neighbouring states don't have similar stringent laws. And I think there are so many weapons circulating in the USt hat even then it would not work for a long time.
    It could only work if ownership of guns would be registrated and from what I read on this forum very few gun owners would be willing to accept that.

  6. #6
    Morris is offline Chief Wheaties Pisser
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    Gabber:

    We don't register guns. Hence, we have not been invaded in war since 1812. We believe in maker given rights. We believe in the right to use what is necessary to defend our lives, our families, homes and homeland.

    Unlike like your nation.

  7. #7
    Gabber is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morris View Post
    Gabber:

    We don't register guns. Hence, we have not been invaded in war since 1812. We believe in maker given rights. We believe in the right to use what is necessary to defend our lives, our families, homes and homeland.

    Unlike like your nation.
    And you pay the price. Your cops are outgunned and killed, you have about 5x more murders and I suppose there will be a few shooting accidents too.
    Oh, and we were invaded but the location and size of my country is a little different from yours. I don't think the german panzers would have been stopped with a rifle or a pistol and it was a bit far for the Japanese and the Germans to invade you.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabber View Post
    And you pay the price. Your cops are outgunned and killed, you have about 5x more murders and I suppose there will be a few shooting accidents too.
    Oh, and we were invaded but the location and size of my country is a little different from yours. I don't think the german panzers would have been stopped with a rifle or a pistol and it was a bit far for the Japanese and the Germans to invade you.
    You watch too much TV or Hollywood movies, and don't read enough history.

    Violence doesn't come from guns, and it never has. Canada has twice the guns per capita and less violence.

    I'm better armed on duty than 99% of any criminals I've ever encountered - and so are most of my brothers and sisters across the United States.

    As for countries being invaded, it is interesting that you choose WWII as an example. I'll leave you with a quote:

    "You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto

    As to your ridiculous assertion that invasion by Germans would not be stopped by rifles, you have only to look to your neighbors the Finns, and Google up the name Simo Häyhä. I don't want a few facts to get in the way of all this chest thumping though, so read with caution lest your preconceived notions be challenged. I'm guessing the Russians would take issue.
    I'm your huckleberry...

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    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


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  9. #9
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    Now, onto other administrative matters. Gabber, please go to the introductions thread and introduce yourself before you land in a forum with both feet. Your profile indicates you work in law enforcement of some type. Please explain in your introduction, and message your verification information to Pudge113 or countybear immediately.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  10. #10
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    How about a ban on probation and parole for violent crimes instead? What good are stricter gun laws going to do if those arrested on the new laws are walking the streets ? Am I the only one that feels that this is a lot like a dog chasing his tail. We're going round and around in a circle and we're not getting anywhere.
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    Ah, we have a new friend and admirer, Gabber.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabber
    Of course those stringent laws don't work if the neighbouring states don't have similar stringent laws. And I think there are so many weapons circulating in the USt hat even then it would not work for a long time.
    Well, welcome to the forums, Gabber. Please take a moment to observe generally-accepted forum edicate and introduce yourself to us in the section provided.

    Regarding this post:
    The point you seemingly missed (completely) was that the individual instigating the aggression in this incident was already illegally in possession of a firearm, thus disregarding totally the laws currently existing both in the community, (State) where the incident occurred, and in the United States as a whole. Enacting more laws does not make something more illegal. Only stiffening the penalties, ensuring that those penalties are indeed applied, and improving the effectiveness of the enforcement of those laws can truly make a difference in real world application.

    It could only work if ownership of guns would be registrated and from what I read on this forum very few gun owners would be willing to accept that.
    Weapon registration is an excersize in futility. While making specific weapons more traceable, such will not reasonably impact the availability of weapons to the criminal. Again, a registration requirement is only yet another law to be ignored by those who ignore laws anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabber View Post
    And you pay the price. Your cops are outgunned and killed, you have about 5x more murders and I suppose there will be a few shooting accidents too.
    Firstly, you have landed (somehow) on a law enforcement forum site. Spouting off about cops being "outgunned and killed" is rather crass, especially coming from a new guest that we haven't even had the courtesy of being introduced to, but given a slight language and sociological barrier which must exist, I'll continue without much deeper commentary on that particular matter.

    You should well quantify your quotation of statistics, rather than dropping 'drive-by' citations like that. The U.S.'s latest murder rate per 100,000 people is 5.6, granted, however some of your own 'stringently gun-less' neighbors (particularly bordering to your East), far outdo the U.S. statistics on a year-by-year basis. I'll grant you that the Netherlands individual statistic is very low (0.97 by last figures), but Europe as a whole only trails the U.S. overall statistic by 1.1. Watch closely, as I include my references:

    List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I wouldn't consider the Netherlands 'a bastien of lawfulness', either though, especially given the social norms which that society is now coming to realize are erosively destructive. Your permissive government has expanded notably on areas where most of the world's governments have ruled certain behaviors impermissible, and the effect, while certainly may have a direct impact upon crime rates in your society (through less things being criminal, or the passification of the masses through creative chemistry), I fail to see where in other areas your nation shares many more 'triumphant' successes.

    Oh, and we were invaded but the location and size of my country is a little different from yours. I don't think the german panzers would have been stopped with a rifle or a pistol and it was a bit far for the Japanese and the Germans to invade you.
    Invasion of the U.S. was certainly a consideration by Axis powers during World War II, however it was considered more a problem of the pervasively armed citizenship than one of logistics alone. I found our American history more an indication of the richness of the liberties that we've experienced, especially given that the U.S. has more effectively maintained its own sovereignty and freedom for a longer time than the Netherlands has. I'm truly glad that we can settle our conflicts in less than 80 years.

    A single rife or pistol might very well not be effective against a rolling tank, but on the grand scale of reality, millions of armed people defending their lives and homes certainly have the distinct advantage over any mobilized army that can be mustered. History has taught us that, as well. Perhaps someone living in a country once occupied by the French might not find that noteworthy.

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    It is like clubbing baby seals sometimes.

    Meanwhile, fishing in Russia:

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    I'll wager a cup of Pike Roast at Bucks that Grabber isn't a cop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabber View Post
    Of course those stringent laws don't work if the neighbouring states don't have similar stringent laws. And I think there are so many weapons circulating in the USt hat even then it would not work for a long time.
    It could only work if ownership of guns would be registrated and from what I read on this forum very few gun owners would be willing to accept that.
    We can't even ensure that cars are properly registered 100% of the time, let alone something that can be hidden in the glove box of a car. Registration would only be a burden on the innocent and law abiding, and I would like to encourage gun ownership in that crowd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabber View Post
    Of course those stringent laws don't work if the neighbouring states don't have similar stringent laws. And I think there are so many weapons circulating in the USt hat even then it would not work for a long time.
    Yeah, there are indeed a lot of guns in America. But the fact remains, no amount of gun laws are going to stop criminals from using guns. Even in your country. It seems you have stringent laws concerning guns and yet, the criminals don't heed them. It also seems that the criminals over your way who do no use guns have simply decided to use other tools. I believe the stats show your violent "crimes against people" rate is higher than ours. Also it appears your "property crime" rates are way up there also.

    So what you have done is take away the means of self defense that a vunerable person can use and basically turned them into a victim. The national mindset of many Americans is not of of victimhood. It's not part of our culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabber View Post

    It could only work if ownership of guns would be registrated and from what I read on this forum very few gun owners would be willing to accept that.
    You guys do that over there, right? Again I'm amazed at the lack of crime you now enjoy.

    The bottom line is that it's your country- do what you wish. The other part of the bottom line is that when you are doing something that doesn't work, don't come to another country and criticize their methods.

    Other than that, welcome to the forum.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morris View Post
    I'll wager a cup of Pike Roast at Bucks that Grabber isn't a cop.
    Safe bet
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    Ironic that they will use the death of four cops to further their anti-gun rhetoric when the very people they are trying to use to put through their ideas are the very ones who would argue against it.

    A wee bit of grandstanding under the wrong tree
    Never be afraid to do what's right, especially if the well-being of a person or animal is at stake. Society's punishments are small compared to the wounds we inflict on our soul when we look the other way" ~Martin Luther King, Jr

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    Quote Originally Posted by countybear View Post
    Did California's 'stringent' gun-control laws work in this incident?

    Does this lead us to believe that 'more stringent' laws (banning more firearms) would?

    CB- that is my point exactly:

    http://officerresource.com/forums/f1...nt-work-34768/

    "Stupid should hurt."

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    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    You watch too much TV or Hollywood movies, and don't read enough history.

    Violence doesn't come from guns, and it never has. Canada has twice the guns per capita and less violence.
    So you tell me that the voilence comes from the people who live there.


    As for countries being invaded, it is interesting that you choose WWII as an example. I'll leave you with a quote:
    "You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto
    nice quote bur invading a big country, far away from your own country takes more troops and logistics than the japanese had

    As to your ridiculous assertion that invasion by Germans would not be stopped by rifles, you have only to look to your neighbors the Finns, and Google up the name Simo Häyhä. I don't want a few facts to get in the way of all this chest thumping though, so read with caution lest your preconceived notions be challenged. I'm guessing the Russians would take issue.
    We are a densely populated small country. Finland is a lot bigger and the border area between Finland and Russia was almost empty with hardly any people living there.
    Hardly situations to compare with each other.

 

 
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