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  1. #1
    Captain America's Avatar
    Captain America is offline Reed and Malloy were my FTOs
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    Battle Over 75 Year Old Mojave Desert Veteran's Memorial










    It's a crying shame that we in the United States Of America are protected from the "obscene" sight of a plain white cross memorializing service members who died for the their country, yet we are allowed to unintentionally see or hear things like rap music with profane lyrics glamorizing degrading and violent behavior toward women , selling drugs and killing cops because that is a protected right .
    SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM

    "It's a great life. You risk your skin catching killers and the juries turn them loose so they can come back and shoot at you again. If your honest , your poor your whole life. And , In the end , you wind up dying all alone on some dirty street. For what? For nothing. For a tin star."
    -Ex-Sheriff Martin Howe to Will Kane in "High Noon"

    Far from being a handicap to command, compassion is the measure of it. For unless one values the lives of his soldiers and is tormented by their ordeals , he is unfit to command.
    -General Omar Bradley, United States Army

    Renniger-Richards-Griswold-Owens

  2. #2
    CTR man's Avatar
    CTR man is offline Officer First Class
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    Screw the ACLU and the horse they rode in on. Hell yea, I'll stand with them. I don't go to work at my place of employment for nothing. Freedom is not free, people, and its high time that the ACLU and their cronies understood that.


    Choose The Right. When you're doing whats right, then you have nothing to worry about.

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    In memory of Robert N. Panos 1955 - 2008 Ceres Police Dept.









  3. #3
    213th's Avatar
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    the aclu is despicable and any one offended by this memorial can gtfo of my country and take the aclu with them
    He who has the money, signs the cheques.
    He who signs the cheques, makes the rules.
    He who makes the rules, has the power.
    He who has the power, has the money.

  4. #4
    mavriktu's Avatar
    mavriktu is offline Patrol Sgt.
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    I know that this is a ridiculously simple solution so therefore cannot possibly work,BUT,the original complaintant filed suit because it was on govt.property,why doesn't the gov't sell the rock to the VFW for a dollar???Doesn't appear to have much use for anything OTHER than a monument.

  5. #5
    Odd's Avatar
    Odd
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    Supreme Court Sides With Interior on Mojave Desert Cross

    The Supreme Court ruled today that Congress and the Interior Department acted properly when they used a land transfer to solve a dispute over a cross on display in the federal Mojave National Preserve.

    The case, Salazar v. Buono, stemmed from a 2001 lawsuit challenging a cross erected in 1934 by the Veterans of Foreign Wars. Frank Buono, an Oregon resident who had served as an assistant superintendent in the park and was a regular visitor, claimed the memorial to World War I veterans was unconstitutional because it gave the impression that the government was advancing a particular religion.

    By a 5-4 margin, the Supreme Court ruled today that lower federal courts were wrong to dismiss as "evasion" the federal government's effort to transfer the land underneath the religious symbol. Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote the opinion (pdf) for the majority, arguing that the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals had failed to consider the profound "dilemma" posed by the case.

    The Interior Department could not leave the cross in place without violating the ruling that the display was unconstitutional, Kennedy wrote, "but it could not remove the cross without conveying disrespect for those the cross was seen as honoring. Deeming neither alternative satisfactory, Congress enacted the land-transfer statute."

    "The statute should not have been dismissed as an evasion, for it brought about a change of law and a congressional statement of policy applicable to the case," Kennedy added.

    Congress had authorized a land swap with the Veterans of Foreign Wars, trading 1 acre of land around the cross in exchange for 5 privately owned acres elsewhere in the preserve. Previously overseen by the Bureau of Land Management, the site of the cross came under control of the National Park Service when the 1.6-million-acre Mojave National Preserve was created in 1994.

    The white wooden cross, roughly 5 feet tall, stands atop Sunrise Rock in California's San Bernardino County. It has been covered with a large plywood box since a lower court ruled it unconstitutional.

    Justice John Paul Stevens dissented today, arguing that the land transfer could itself be considered a promotion of religion. If the land had been privately owned to begin with, he wrote, there would be no question that the statue is permissible under control of the veterans.

    "But the Government does own this land, and the transfer statute requires the executive branch to take an affirmative act -- transfer to private ownership -- designed to keep the cross in place," Stevens wrote, joined by Justices Sonia Sotomayor and Stephen Breyer.

    In a brief on behalf of Interior Secretary Ken Salazar, Solicitor General Elena Kagan said there was no reason to conclude that the continued presence of the cross would imply government sponsorship. The transfer handed over control to the Veterans of Foreign Wars and required the installation of a plaque dissociating the statue from the federal government, she wrote.

    "Congress already has taken steps to end any continuing endorsement," she wrote. "By ordering the Park Service to install a plaque stating that the cross was erected by the VFW to commemorate fallen service members, Congress has required 'a clearly visible' statement of the memorial's secular origin and purpose."

    Court opinion in PDF : Link

  6. #6
    Captain America's Avatar
    Captain America is offline Reed and Malloy were my FTOs
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    Thanks for posting the update , Odd.
    SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM

    "It's a great life. You risk your skin catching killers and the juries turn them loose so they can come back and shoot at you again. If your honest , your poor your whole life. And , In the end , you wind up dying all alone on some dirty street. For what? For nothing. For a tin star."
    -Ex-Sheriff Martin Howe to Will Kane in "High Noon"

    Far from being a handicap to command, compassion is the measure of it. For unless one values the lives of his soldiers and is tormented by their ordeals , he is unfit to command.
    -General Omar Bradley, United States Army

    Renniger-Richards-Griswold-Owens

  7. #7
    Car 4's Avatar
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    Virtually every such memorial in and around Washington D.C. and in many states sits squarely on "Government land". Anyone seen the WW !! Memorial or the Marine Memorial or been to Arlington National emetary?

    The cross at the Washington State National Cemetary in Maple Valley outside Seattle has never been challenged.....what, you must ask yourself so irratates Frank Buono and the ACLU that they must spend so much time and treasure objecting to such things.

    I suspect that when these folks get to stand in front of the Big Chair and answer a few questions, they better have a good story....God's sense of humor doesn't extend to the cross his son died on.

    Car 4
    I would like my country back. I used to believe that one man could never destroy this country. Not so sure anymore!

  8. #8
    lewisipso's Avatar
    lewisipso is offline Injustice/Indifference/In God we trust
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    Do not war for peace. If you must war, war for justice. For without justice there is no peace. -me

    We are who we choose to be.

    R.I.P. Arielle. 08/20/2010-09/16/2012


  9. #9
    mavriktu's Avatar
    mavriktu is offline Patrol Sgt.
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    Congress had authorized a land swap with the Veterans of Foreign Wars, trading 1 acre of land around the cross in exchange for 5 privately owned acres elsewhere in the preserve. Previously overseen by the Bureau of Land Management, the site of the cross came under control of the National Park Service when the 1.6-million-acre Mojave National Preserve was created in 1994.
    Hey! ya gotta admit,my solution was damn close.

  10. #10
    Captain America's Avatar
    Captain America is offline Reed and Malloy were my FTOs
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    Quote Originally Posted by mavriktu View Post
    Hey! ya gotta admit,my solution was damn close.
    That means your smart enough to be in Congress. My, isn't that a pleasant thought.
    SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM

    "It's a great life. You risk your skin catching killers and the juries turn them loose so they can come back and shoot at you again. If your honest , your poor your whole life. And , In the end , you wind up dying all alone on some dirty street. For what? For nothing. For a tin star."
    -Ex-Sheriff Martin Howe to Will Kane in "High Noon"

    Far from being a handicap to command, compassion is the measure of it. For unless one values the lives of his soldiers and is tormented by their ordeals , he is unfit to command.
    -General Omar Bradley, United States Army

    Renniger-Richards-Griswold-Owens

  11. #11
    Odd's Avatar
    Odd
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    Disputed Mojave cross honoring US war dead stolen


    A cross erected on a remote Mojave Desert outcropping to honor American war dead has been stolen less than two weeks after the U.S. Supreme Court allowed it to remain standing while a legal battle continued over its presence on federal land.

    Versions of the memorial have been vandalized repeatedly in the last 75 years and the motive this time was not immediately known, but the theft was condemned Tuesday by veterans groups that support the cross and by civil libertarians that saw it as a violation of the constitutional separation of church and state.

    "The American Legion expects whoever is responsible for this vile act to be brought to justice," said Clarence Hill, the group's national commander.

    Attorney Peter Eliasberg of the American Civil Liberties Union of Southern California, which sued on behalf of an opponent of the cross, said the organization rejects any resort to theft or vandalism.

    "We believe in the rule of law and we think the proper way to resolve to any controversy about the cross is through the courts," he said.

    The 7-foot-high metal cross vanished from its perch in the Mojave National Preserve late Sunday or early Monday, said National Park Service spokeswoman Linda Slater. Bolts holding it to the rock were cut.

    Slater said possible scenarios ranged from people "with an interest in the case" to metal scavengers. The U.S. Justice Department was looking into the case.

    The cross has been the center of a legal dispute for about a decade since a complaint by a former park service employee represented by the ACLU.

    On a 5-4 vote in April, the U.S. Supreme Court refused to order its removal. The high court told a federal judge to take a new look at a congressional plan to transfer land under the cross to private ownership.

    The theft was discovered when workers went to replace a plywood cover that was placed over the cross years ago pending resolution of the case and had been torn off during the weekend.

    The isolated site in the 1.6 million-acre preserve is a small rise amid Joshua trees along a road far off busy Interstate 15, about 200 miles northeast of Los Angeles and 70 miles south of Las Vegas.

    The Veterans of Foreign Wars first placed a wooden cross on Sunrise Rock in 1934 to honor soldiers killed in World War I.

    The metal cross that was stolen was erected in the late 1990s by the memorial's longtime caretakers, Henry and Wanda Sandoz of Yucca Valley.

    Liberty Institute, an organization representing the Sandozes and veterans groups, offered a $25,000 reward for information leading to an arrest or conviction.

    Wanda Sandoz said the cross had been vandalized in the past, but such instances had become rarer since her husband bolted it down.

    "I was really upset and I was crying, and I said: 'Well, we'll show them. We'll put up a bigger one and a better one," she said. "And Henry said: 'No we won't. We will put one up exactly like the veterans put up.'"

    The VFW also promised that the memorial will be rebuilt.

    "This was a legal fight that a vandal just made personal to 50 million veterans, military personnel and their families," National Commander Thomas J. Tradewell said.

    It was not immediately clear, however, whether a replacement cross would be permitted.

    "We're waiting for news from the Department of Justice as to what we should do. The case is still in litigation," said Slater, the park service spokeswoman.

    Federal courts ruled earlier in this decade that having the cross in the national preserve was unconstitutional. The issue that most recently went to the Supreme Court was the rejection by lower courts of the congressional effort to solve the problem by transferring the land into private hands.

    In sending the case back to a lower court, six justices wrote separate opinions.

    Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote that the cross shouldn't be seen merely as a religious symbol.

    "Here one Latin cross in the desert evokes far more than religion. It evokes thousands of small crosses in foreign fields marking the graves of Americans who fell in battles, battles whose tragedies are compounded if the fallen are forgotten," he wrote.

    In dissent, Justice John Paul Stevens agreed that soldiers who died in battle deserve a memorial. But the government "cannot lawfully do so by continued endorsement of a starkly sectarian message," Stevens said.

    The ACLU's Eliasberg said he hadn't thought about what to do if the cross is replaced, but noted that the group had not objected to leaving up the current cross while it was covered.

    Eliasberg said he did not know whether Frank Buono, the former park service employee involved in the lawsuit, had been contacted by any investigator. Eliasberg said Buono is a "decent and honorable person" who has pursued the case through the courts.

  12. #12
    Ducky's Avatar
    Ducky is offline Enforcer General
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    I hate people.
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