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  1. #1
    kimby is offline Banned
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    Frank Booth of O.com

    Didn't someone mention Frank Booth of Officer.com a while back, or am I thinking of another forum? I've always thought Frank was kind of funny, and I enjoyed his sarcasm, but with this latest thread, I too am starting to wonder.

    http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45727

    Just wondering if anyone has seen this thread and has an opinion on it. I'm not a cop, so I don't know what to think.

  2. #2
    Virginian's Avatar
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    I think those two people are freakin idiots. If I drove past a shooting and suddenly someone came busting out of a house and pulled me out of my car at gunpoint, then searched my car, the least they'd get is a lawsuit and the most they'd get would be some .357 rounds. It could have been a backfire or firecrackers for all they knew. What they did could be considered abduction, as the people were moved and detained by force. Completely idiotic, illegal and unsafe thing to do.

  3. #3
    Terminator's Avatar
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    Besides, who says a citizen can't use deadly force to stop a fleeing felon? All depends on what state you're in.
    In this state, a citizen can not be prosecuted by the state for using deadly force to stop a fleeing. ANY fleeing felon, whether he poses a danger to the citizen or not.
    we have to have reasonable suspicion to search (the vehicle) under the above circumstances.
    Citizens have virtually the SAME authority as YOU do to arrest for felonies
    And before you yell "TN V. Garner" (not that I have anything against your state), Ask "Most Wanted" why that alone has nothing to do with state criminal charges for shooting a fleeing felon.
    I doubt this person is a real LEO....again, with Officer.com, you can never tell....everyone's whatever they want to be.

  4. #4
    Retdetsgt's Avatar
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    In Oregon, a regular citizen has no more or less rights than a police officer when it comes to using deadly force so he's right.

    The difference here is that neither can shoot all fleeing felons, it depends on whether or not they constitute a danger. If you shoot someone trying to get away in your stolen car, police or not, you're probably going to get prosecuted. If you shoot a fleeing armed robber, citizen or cop, there's no problem.
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  5. #5
    TXCharlie's Avatar
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    I'm not a cop and your mileage will vary in other states, but I can definitely say that first of all, they didn't use Deadly Force as defined in Texas - Deadly Force means actually pulling the trigger.

    Secondly, some Texas cops correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Texas law gives citizens nearly as much power as cops in those scenarios, due to the "Necessity Clause" - Which states that you can do what is reasonable under the circumstances, even if you break the law, to prevent a greater harm... Under the circumstances it may have been reasonable to suspect that the gunfire was coming from the kids, especially since I believe Texas law tries to view things from the shoes of those who are potentially defending themselves or others (i.e., the adults in this case).

    Of course, had they actually seen the kids shooting guns off at houses in the neighborhood, I personally think the adult's powers would have been unlimited toward the shooters, end of story - In Texas, defense of others is the same as self-defense. Since they didn't really see anything, however, the question of whether or not what they did fits the definition of "reasonable" would probably be up to a Grand Jury and/or Civil Court to determine, I suspect.

    And if a cop had pulled up, the adults had better "assume the position" and follow orders - If the cops had just pulled up and begun shooting, they would have been in the wrong if the adults followed their orders - I would hope that the cops would be better trained than that.

    Notice, however, I didn't say what they did was smart

    But on the other hand, in some areas of Dallas if more residents did that then it would definitely be an improvement over what they have now.
    Last edited by TXCharlie; 04-10-06 at 10:12 PM.

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  6. #6
    kimby is offline Banned
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    I see there are some opposing views on this. The whole thing kind of scares me. I have some crazy neighbors with guns, and I'd hate to think they'd take it upon themselves to try to enforce the law.

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    TXCharlie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimby
    I see there are some opposing views on this. The whole thing kind of scares me. I have some crazy neighbors with guns, and I'd hate to think they'd take it upon themselves to try to enforce the law.
    In this country, it's our law, and thus the right of a citizen to intervene under some conditions is actually part of the law - In cases of self defense or the defense of a 3rd party, the victim actually has more power than the entire Criminal Justice system combined while the crime is in progress (but only in non-communist states of our country).

    Under my definition of vigilantism, only when a citizen starts making his own laws or becomes reckless does he cross the line and become a threat or a criminal himself.
    Last edited by TXCharlie; 04-11-06 at 08:47 AM.

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  8. #8
    Virginian's Avatar
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    I agree with Charlie, but I believe this situation was way out of hand. With no training and no right to detain someone for something you didn't observe, doing something like this could get you in serious legal trouble or a hospital.

  9. #9
    TXCharlie's Avatar
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    Yes, we can agree that it was a poor case because the adults didn't actually see who the shooters were, and they were in a tactically vulnerable position outside a vanload of kids who they suspected were armed.

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virginian
    I agree with Charlie, but I believe this situation was way out of hand. With no training and no right to detain someone for something you didn't observe, doing something like this could get you in serious legal trouble or a hospital.
    My personal policy (which I've never had to use BTW) is to go hands off and be the best witness I can. The only time I'd draw and get involved is if it was obviously life threatening. If someone came in a robbed a convenience store and I was there I wouldn't pull my weapon and try to get the drop on him. If something went wrong I'd end up in jail and civil court afterwords. Only if he started shooting would I act.

  11. #11
    Virginian's Avatar
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    Ditto

    I've seen way too many videos of people in shootings who have been shot firing several times after they are hit. I'm not interested in giving someone that chance unless lives depend on it.
    Last edited by Virginian; 04-11-06 at 09:11 AM.

  12. #12
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    Yeah, especially when there's more than one - It can take up to 3 seconds to draw and fire from concealment, but if the perp(s) already have their guns at the ready, such as in a robbery, it can take them only a half-second to aim & fire.

    Like I said, I didn't say the adults in that case were smart.

    And of course, there's always the risk of hitting an innocent person, even someone standing outside the building if the bullet goes thru the wall or something.

    But having said all that, it's built into the law in Texas that you can shoot an armed robber anytime of the day or night - That's simply part of the same law that gives police their powers, like it or not. Anyone who doesn't like that on principle may find the laws in Washington, DC or New York City more to their liking, where it's truly against the law to defend yourself and others.
    Last edited by TXCharlie; 04-11-06 at 09:36 AM.

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  13. #13
    Retdetsgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimby
    I see there are some opposing views on this. The whole thing kind of scares me. I have some crazy neighbors with guns, and I'd hate to think they'd take it upon themselves to try to enforce the law.
    There might be a state where there is no power for citizens to make arrests, but I never heard of it.

    There are numerous degrees of homicide in every state, including justifiable and the law applies to both police and citizens. Granted a lot, if not most citizens probably don't know what the laws are, but they are still granted the same rights and restrictions as police when it comes to the use of deadly force. And deadly force is not restricted to firearms.

    Frank is right about that. The key is to know what the the state law is where you live.
    When I used to be somebody (I'm center top)

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  14. #14
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    Then my question would be this. Let's say that there was someone in the van with the kids.. the driver even. Let's also say that this driver is 22 and is legally carrying concealed.

    What would have been the charges, if any, brought against him if he laid into the housewife and the neighbor as they came up on him gun's drawn. One would think he could make a damn strong case that he had just been shot at and he believed he was still in immediate danger.

    Ideas?
    Last edited by MisterK; 04-11-06 at 02:55 PM.
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  15. #15
    kimby is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retdetsgt
    Frank is right about that. The key is to know what the the state law is where you live.
    If you say Frank is right that that's the law in some states then I believe you. I guess I just got creeped out by how adamantly he seemed to be defending their actions. It sounds like most people would not recommend what they did, and I'm glad.

  16. #16
    Retdetsgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimby
    If you say Frank is right that that's the law in some states then I believe you. I guess I just got creeped out by how adamantly he seemed to be defending their actions. It sounds like most people would not recommend what they did, and I'm glad.
    Some people seem to believe that police have special powers to use deadly force that citizens don't possess. I suspect Frank was just emphasizing that was a fallacy.

    Police also sometimes use deadly force when it's legal, but not always the best route either. I've investigated more than a few of those instances too. But the same legal consideration would be given an private citizen who did the same thing under the same circumstances.
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  17. #17
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    A lot of what Frank says is legit, something may be getting lost in the translation.

    I agree with the comment that you can be anything you want at O.com; I'm a wealthy Porn actor/Academy Award winning Director over there.
    Why no, that's not a pregnant anaconda in my pants...why do you ask?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrickCop
    A lot of what Frank says is legit, something may be getting lost in the translation.

    I agree with the comment that you can be anything you want at O.com; I'm a wealthy Porn actor/Academy Award winning Director over there.
    You mean... you're NOT????!


    Well that explains my lack of paycheck from that sofa scene...


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  19. #19
    kimby is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retdetsgt
    I suspect Frank was just emphasizing that was a fallacy.
    Yes, I see that now.

    This loosely reminds me of a situation in my neighborhood. One family decided they didn't like people getting too close to their apartment. Although the grounds were for the use of all residents they considered the area behind their apartment to be their own backyard. Unfortunately it contained the only available shade, so people continued to go there.

    The family let it be known that they had 7 guns in the house and that if they heard anyone near their apartment they might get "scared of prowlers" and use them. They kept telling the other residents, "you never know what might happen" in a threatening way that scared everyone. So in effect, they did get their own private backyard.

    It makes me wonder, if they found someone out there, if they would have had the right to hold them at gunpoint under that guise that they suspected them of prowling, or if they claimed to have heard gunshots or something. I'm in CA.

    I know it's totally different from what the thread described, but it just made me wonder.

  20. #20
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    That kind of nonsense seems like a borderline terroristic threat to me, since it could be little kids playing by his window, or other apartment residents with a legal right to be there.

    I would take it seriously and notify the police, maybe even file a complaint application, even though they may only be able to have a chat with him. That's one example of where people start making up their own laws and give responsible gun owners a bad name.

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