Accidental Shootings

**kimby** · 04-15-06, 05:17 AM

Sorry to always be bringing Officer.com subjects to this forum, but this is where I seems to get the best answers. I am having trouble with the subject of this thread:

http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45879

First, isn't it actually pretty bad that the DEA would have let this tape out to the public? Shouldn't officers under investigation be able to expect some confidentiality?

Next, why is it that officers are so quick to jump on an officer who has an accidental discharge? To a civilian like me, it seems like something that could happen very easily. When other officers ridicule the shooter, are they really thinking of how they could be in the same situation? Is condemning the officer some kind of defense mechanism, as though they have to convince themselves that the guy was a jerk and it could never happen to them?

As for myself I was thinking how embarassing it must have been, how hard it would have been to ignore the pain, and how admirably the officer handled the situation in trying to make it less traumatic for the kids (though he maybe shouldn't have gone on showing the guns). I'm surprised none of the O.commers could relate. I've seen officers react similarly to other incidents.

I guess I'm not so much asking about this specific article, but why officers who shoot accidentally seem to be beyond any understanding and support.

**Curt581** · 04-15-06, 05:27 AM

A couple reasons...

Almost anything the police or government agents do, whether on official reports or video, is subject to Open Records law. It's likely the DEA had no choice in releasing the video.

Police officers are trained and drilled relentlessly on firearms safety. In this case, that agent violated those rules pretty badly.

Last, DEA agents seem to be issued egos so large they have their own zip codes. My experience has been that they are almost never as good as they think they are. Hence, I have no sympathy when they screw up.

**kimby** · 04-15-06, 05:30 AM

Originally Posted by Curt581

A couple reasons...

Almost anything the police or government agents do, whether on official reports or video, is subject to Open Records law. It's likely the DEA had no choice in releasing the video.

Police officers are trained and drilled relentlessly on firearms safety. In this case, that agent violated those rules pretty badly.

Last, DEA agents seem to be issued egos so large they have their own zip codes. My experience has been that they are almost never as good as they think they are. Hence, I have no sympathy when they screw up.

Thanks for explaining about Open Records and the DEA.

Which rules did the agent violate?

**BEK** · 04-15-06, 05:34 AM

First, isn't it actually pretty bad that the DEA would have let this tape out to the public? Shouldn't officers under investigation be able to expect some confidentiality?

The tape was made in public, I cannot comment if it was the only tape made or who was responsible for the tape.

Next, why is it that officers are so quick to jump on an officer who has an accidental discharge? To a civilian like me, it seems like something that could happen very easily. When other officers ridicule the shooter, are they really thinking of how they could be in the same situation? Is condemning the officer some kind of defense mechanism, as though they have to convince themselves that the guy was a jerk and it could never happen to them?

Everyone knows that police are held in a higher standard then regular people, RULE #1 Treat every gun as if it was loaded. RULE #2 Never point your gun at anything your not willing to destroy. They are simple rules that the agent did not follow. Therefore the shooting was not accidental. An accident is something that is an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance. It was a good thing that he was pointing the gun at himself and not in any childs direction otherwise I bet the conversations about this would be different.
If I was foolish enough to shoot myself I doubt that I would just stand there, let alone try to play it off as if nothing had happened. The Agent should have not tried to go on with the show. When you mess up you have to stand up for it. Granted he prolly treats guns as if they are loaded now but its a little late.

**Curt581** · 04-15-06, 05:36 AM

Rules of firearms safety and handling.

He should never have unholstered a loaded firearm in a school in the first place.

He should never have had his finger in the triggerguard unless or until his firearm was pointed at a target he intended to shoot.

**kimby** · 04-15-06, 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by BEK320

If I was foolish enough to shoot myself I doubt that I would just stand there, let alone try to play it off as if nothing had happened. The Agent should have not tried to go on with the show. When you mess up you have to stand up for it.

Yeah, okay. I see what you're saying. The only thing I tend to disagree with you on is that he shouldn't have pretended that nothing happened. It seems to me that his lack of reaction made it easier on the kids, and he did point out that it was an example of what could happen with guns. How should it have been handled differently?

**kimby** · 04-15-06, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by Curt581

Rules of firearms safety and handling.

He should never have unholstered a loaded firearm in a school in the first place.

He should never have had his finger in the triggerguard unless or until his firearm was pointed at a target he intended to shoot.

My thinking was that someone else prepared the firearm and he didn't know it was loaded. But okay, I get the unholstering thing.

**Curt581** · 04-15-06, 05:54 AM

He should never handle a firearm without checking to see if it's loaded FIRST.

Doesn't matter whether it he knew it was loaded or not, he should have treated it as if it were. Always.

**kimby** · 04-15-06, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by Curt581

He should never handle a firearm without checking to see if it's loaded FIRST.

Doesn't matter whether it he knew it was loaded or not, he should have treated it as if it were. Always.

Oh, okay.

**213th** · 04-15-06, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by kimby

It seems to me that his lack of reaction made it easier on the kids, and he did point out that it was an example of what could happen with guns. How should it have been handled differently?

Personally I think if he didn't play it off the kids would get a more real 'feel' for what a gun would do and hence maybe give them more respect for weapons. Could be wrong.

**kimby** · 04-15-06, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by 213th

Personally I think if he didn't play it off the kids would get a more real 'feel' for what a gun would do and hence maybe give them more respect for weapons.

Yeah, maybe. He did point out that it was an example of what could happen with guns though. I thought that was good.

**TXCharlie** · 04-15-06, 02:09 PM

I think the bottom line is that anything that happens in public is the public's business.

If the same thing had happened in his own home, or in a police training facility, then maybe the public wouldn't need to know about it.

He got an expensive lesson that probably made a big impression on him, so I would hope that he's not likely to repeat it. He may be the safest living gun handler alive right now

**Donut Aficionado** · 04-15-06, 02:19 PM

I watched an interview with the agent last night on MSNBC and he admitted to working the slide to clear the chamber and then dropping the magazine. Everyone knows that if you dont drop the magazine first, all you have done is chamber another round....seems like a lack of attention to detail to me, and I agree with the unholstering a loaded firearm in a classroom, should never happen.

**TXCharlie** · 04-15-06, 02:43 PM

Yeah, bringing a real gun to class for demo purposes is perfectly OK as far as I'm concerned, but one of the key safety rules in doing that is to have no loose ammo or loaded magazines in the room, except in holstered weapons.

Not even in a shooting match can we just pull out our unloaded guns and start playing with them, because there's too many loaded magazines around and on our belts - It's way too easy to just load the thing out of habit and forget it's loaded.

There was a vetran police officer around here that did something similar to that during a training session, with tragic results.

**Donut Aficionado** · 04-15-06, 08:36 PM

I just watched the video really closely.....He's the only one professional enough to carry a GLOCK .40?? I carry one off duty! and I havent shot myself ....yet knock on wood!!

I cannot believe he was going to try to show the kids a long gun after that!! What a maroon! I'm glad smarter heads prevailed and kept him from carrying on the show! Did'nt he realize he was BLEEDING?? The friggin DEA needs to sue him for embarrassing them. GEEZ!!

**Norm357** · 04-15-06, 08:41 PM

That Agent is an idiot.

**Donut Aficionado** · 04-15-06, 09:04 PM

+1

**TXCharlie** · 04-15-06, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by Donut Aficionado

I just watched the video really closely.....He's the only one professional enough to carry a GLOCK .40?? I carry one off duty! and I havent shot myself ....yet knock on wood

You would have if you'd chambered the round, pointed it at your foot, and pulled the trigger - Except for those minor details, you're just lucky that way

I'm sure someone's gonna blame the gun sooner or later, just wait & see...

**Iron Man** · 04-15-06, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by Curt581

Last, DEA agents seem to be issued egos so large they have their own zip codes. My experience has been that they are almost never as good as they think they are. Hence, I have no sympathy when they screw up.