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  1. #1
    121Traffic's Avatar
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    An exemplary CCW encounter

    Received this in an email. I don't know what was justifying this contact, whether it was dispatched, or on site initiated. Regardless of what ever CA law says about on-view OC being reasonable grounds to stop and check the weapon's unloaded status, this officer is a model of professionalism. He told the citizen he would be recovering the weapon to check it, and returned it and went about his business. No different than a Terry frisk for a lawfully carried knife.

    Once he ascertained the gun was being carried in a legal manner, the detention ended and the contact became essentially consensual. Hence why he didn't press the guy for his name. He probably could have made the argument that he could have pressed more for the name since the contact started off as a detention, but he made the right choice not to. The nature of the very situation necessitates that the officer makes the contact safe first by checking the weapon. Once the weapon is safe in this case, the reasonable suspicion ceases to exist and therefore the contact has to change gears. An interesting conundrum.

    He wasn't heavy handed and remained polite and even friendly. In contrast, I think it's the citizen here who comes off as an ass to an officer who is clearly conscientious and protective of the citizen's 2A rights. I understand not wanting to ID yourself to prove a point. The same point could have been made by saying "Am I free to go? Can I walk away?" By all indications, the cop would have let him and would have told him so. At that point, he could have returned the goodwill and said "Ok, as long as this is a consensual encounter, my full name is Joe Shit the Rag Bag."

    The poster smacks of being put off by the apparent professionalism and constitutional knowledge of the officer, and doesn't want to tell the officer and the world who he is, even though he's clearly trying to join the Crusade. I think he even explains his refusal by saying, "There's not a Stop and ID STATURE." LMAO The cop, OTOH, knows his job, knows his limitations, and knows how to work within those limitations. He knows he's in the right, and is downright proud to give his name and badge number, because he knows he's bringing credit on his agency and is scoring one back for the good guys. He was a dick, without being a dick, about the YouTube thing too. Just seemed to make the citizen more irritated. "I know you're fishing. I served for 22 years to protect your right to fish. But fish somewhere else because you ain't catching your dinner here, asshole." Love it. I'm a firm believer that for every one case of the red ass shown in videos like the Canton incident, there are 100+ videos of cops like this handling things absolutely perfect. It shouldn't surprise anyone that we don't see them simply because they probably get deleted right away.


  2. #2
    Jenna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 121Traffic View Post
    At that point, he could have returned the goodwill and said "Ok, as long as this is a consensual encounter, my full name is Joe Shit the Rag Bag."
    Maybe he was just embarrassed to have that as his name....

    The officer was remarkably calm, patient, and professional, and even had a sense of humor. It's great how even the person who made and then posted the video, who was clearly distrustful of police and critical of their enforcement of gun laws, would preface the video with the comment, "cop was cool about the whole thing." Way to turn swords into ploughshares!

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    Maybe he was just embarrassed to have that as his name....

    The officer was remarkably calm, patient, and professional, and even had a sense of humor. It's great how even the person who made and then posted the video, who was clearly distrustful of police and critical of their enforcement of gun laws, would preface the video with the comment, "cop was cool about the whole thing." Way to turn swords into ploughshares!
    You're a bit naive in the issue. Any publicity for the guy's movement is good publicity. Even in the face of extreme professionalism, there are the cronies who now have another video to comment on trying to say the officer "badgered" him for his name, etc. Believe me...this guy's video was not about making friends with his local PD.
    "If anything worthwhile comes of this tragedy, it should be the realization by every citizen that often the only thing that stands between them and losing everything they hold dear... is the man wearing a badge." -- Ronald Reagan, in the wake of the deaths of 4 CHP troopers in the Newhall Incident, 1970

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    Jenna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 121Traffic View Post
    You're a bit naive in the issue. Any publicity for the guy's movement is good publicity. Even in the face of extreme professionalism, there are the cronies who now have another video to comment on trying to say the officer "badgered" him for his name, etc. Believe me...this guy's video was not about making friends with his local PD.
    Perhaps a small number of extremists who already have their minds made up will never be convinced by any kind of evidence that doesn't support their pre-existing views, but most people who see the video will think the officer did a great job (as most of the video's comments suggest). More open-minded members of the poster's own movement who might think the video was staged if it was posted by a police dept or even the media are more likely to believe this video represents the reality of police professionalism because it was posted by their own ally, and distrust LEOs less as a result. So the video will encourage more favorable views of law enforcement regardless of the poster's intentions.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    Perhaps a small number of extremists who already have their minds made up will never be convinced by any kind of evidence that doesn't support their pre-existing views, but most people who see the video (including most who commented on it) will think the officer did a great job. More open-minded members of the poster's own movement who might think the video was staged if it was posted by a police dept or even the media are more likely to believe this video represents the reality of police professionalism because it was posted by an ally, and distrust LEOs less as a result. So the video will encourage more favorable views of law enforcement regardless of the poster's intentions.
    As a matter of course, I loathe child molesters. Even those that claim they don't hurt children, that they nurture them, love them, respect them, etc. They even go so far as to say they care about the welfare of the children then molest.

    One video of a child molester helping in an effort to pull a drowning kid out of a lake is not going to make me think to myself, "Hmm...those guys really DO care about the welfare of children, and I've just been closed-minded."

    An imperfect analogy, certainly. But it's still illustrative of the deep-seeded distrust these people have. I'm telling you, the video wasn't meant to support the cops. Those people making supportive comments probably don't hate the cops anyway.
    "If anything worthwhile comes of this tragedy, it should be the realization by every citizen that often the only thing that stands between them and losing everything they hold dear... is the man wearing a badge." -- Ronald Reagan, in the wake of the deaths of 4 CHP troopers in the Newhall Incident, 1970

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  6. #6
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    Great job by the officer. I'm sure that "Jeremy" was disappointed by the officer's professionalism.




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    Awesome, awesome work. He handled that the way that the other 98% that don't make it to youtube do every day.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Great job by the officer. I'm sure that "Jeremy" was disappointed by the officer's professionalism.
    +1 - "Jeremy" seem confused that the officer was doing a great job.
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  9. #9
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    Did he check his CCW permit?
    No one has greater love than this, to lay down ones life for ones friends - John 15:13

    "The Wicked Flee When No Man Pursueth: But The Righteous Are Bold As A Lion".

    We lucky few, we band of brothers. For he who today sheds his blood with me shall be my brother.

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmur5074 View Post
    Did he check his CCW permit?
    I don't think so. California allows OC so long as the weapon is unloaded with an empty mag well, with the requirement that officers can check the weapon to ensure it's in compliance. I think that's what this situation is. Regardless of what I think about the law and the preemptive search it allows, this guy did a great job.
    "If anything worthwhile comes of this tragedy, it should be the realization by every citizen that often the only thing that stands between them and losing everything they hold dear... is the man wearing a badge." -- Ronald Reagan, in the wake of the deaths of 4 CHP troopers in the Newhall Incident, 1970

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmur5074 View Post
    Did he check his CCW permit?

    Not sure where Oceanside PD is, but it may not be required to open carry. No permit unnecessary in AL to carry openly. Need one to carry concealed on your person or in a vehicle.

    Part in bold is what gets people in trouble the most.

    Meanwhile, fishing in Russia:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by 121Traffic View Post
    I don't think so. California allows OC so long as the weapon is unloaded with an empty mag well, with the requirement that officers can check the weapon to ensure it's in compliance. I think that's what this situation is. Regardless of what I think about the law and the preemptive search it allows, this guy did a great job.
    Ahh....gotcha that makes sense.


    In MN, OC or not, carriers are required to provide their permit and a govt issued ID card when requested by a LEO.
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  13. #13
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    Question: How does the encounter remain consensual if you have his gun in your hands?

    I agree it was handled well.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


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  14. #14
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    You are allowed to detain them enough to make sure they are in compliance with the law (ie. Unloaded). If they were to refuse or were carrying a loaded weapon they would be arrested. Once it is deteremined they are in compliance the weapon must be returned and the detention is over. Everything after that would be consentual. Because of these OC nuts there is a big movement right now in CA to end legal OC. So far republicans have managed to get it postponed. It is just a matter of time now before it becomes law though. This a case where if the nuts hadn't thrown it in people's faces it wouldn't have been even looked at twice.
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    A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. Sigmund Freud

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacLean View Post
    Question: How does the encounter remain consensual if you have his gun in your hands?

    I agree it was handled well.

    I believe at roughly the 1:30 mark he holstered the gun for the guy. From then on, I'd agree that it was consensual.
    No one has greater love than this, to lay down ones life for ones friends - John 15:13

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmur5074 View Post
    I believe at roughly the 1:30 mark he holstered the gun for the guy. From then on, I'd agree that it was consensual.
    Yep. He asks the guy to holster it and the guy asked him to holster it for him. I don't think it started as consensual but I think it turned that way

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgg View Post
    You are allowed to detain them enough to make sure they are in compliance with the law (ie. Unloaded). If they were to refuse or were carrying a loaded weapon they would be arrested. Once it is deteremined they are in compliance the weapon must be returned and the detention is over. Everything after that would be consentual. Because of these OC nuts there is a big movement right now in CA to end legal OC. So far republicans have managed to get it postponed. It is just a matter of time now before it becomes law though. This a case where if the nuts hadn't thrown it in people's faces it wouldn't have been even looked at twice.
    Seizing someone "to determine if they are in compliance" is in and of itself questionable as far as the fourth amendment. I recognize the PC in California may say so, however.

    California State Supreme Court has not ruled on such a case that I can locate.

    In Washington, we could engage in a social contact but not disarm the person - absent some other reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.

    The mere presence of a holstered firearm is not reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed.
    I'm your huckleberry...

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    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


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  18. #18
    MacLean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 121Traffic View Post
    Yep. He asks the guy to holster it and the guy asked him to holster it for him. I don't think it started as consensual but I think it turned that way
    Missed that, thank you.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  19. #19
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    Why would one openly carry an unloaded firearm?

    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
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  20. #20
    Jenna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by countybear View Post
    Why would one openly carry an unloaded firearm?
    To increase the likelihood of being able to make this kind of video to post to Youtube?

 

 
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