Welcome to the APBWeb.
Results 1 to 18 of 18
  1. #1
    TheOldRhino's Avatar
    TheOldRhino is offline Corporal
    Join Date
    05-23-06
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    1,142
    Rep Power
    2707686

    Double Jeopardy?

    Whilest lounging in court waiting to not be called as a witness, my buddy and I got into an arguement over the film Double Jeopardy.

    For those that haven't seen the movie or read the book, I'll sum up. Yes, there are spoilers here, but the movie is like 6 years old so if you haven't seen it by now, I don't think you ever planned to.

    Anyway, the plot is basically wife gets convicted for murdering husband. The husband faked his own death (and IIRC frames the wife). Wife gets out of jail and husband shows up. Wife goes to kill husband for framing her. Her logic is simple: Now that she has served time for killing him, she could legally kill him (for real this time) because she can't be charged with the same crime twice.

    My arguement is that this couldn't happen because it was a seperate incident, so she could get charged again.

    My buddy disagrees.

    Opinions?
    The virtue of spirit has no need for thanks or approval. Only the certain conviction that what has been done is right. -Jor El, as played by Marlon Brando

  2. #2
    121Traffic's Avatar
    121Traffic is offline Just Us
    Verified LEO
    Site Moderator
    Join Date
    01-09-06
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    4,547
    Rep Power
    6332992
    Heh, your buddy is a cop? And he's not retarded?

    By his logic, I could be busted for burglary/possession of meth/assault, etc. what have you, and I could NEVER be charged with those crimes again? Ask him what he does when he arrests someone for something. Does he run a criminal history before putting the cuffs on to make sure it isn't "double jeopardy"??

    You can't be charged twice for a criminal act in a given incident. You know this, but your buddy sounds a bit misguided and may need some remedial training. I.E high school civics.
    "If anything worthwhile comes of this tragedy, it should be the realization by every citizen that often the only thing that stands between them and losing everything they hold dear... is the man wearing a badge." -- Ronald Reagan, in the wake of the deaths of 4 CHP troopers in the Newhall Incident, 1970

    The opinions given in my posts DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "121Traffic" on O/R.

  3. #3
    Ducky's Avatar
    Ducky is offline Enforcer General
    Supporting Member Lvl 3
    Join Date
    12-05-05
    Location
    Handbasket, enroute to somewhere hot.
    Posts
    11,108
    Rep Power
    7439165
    +1 to the both of you. I would think that would be like saying that you couldn't be charged twice for two separate instances of ATTEMPTED murder on the same person, once before you got canned, once after you're released.

    Just my opinion, of course.
    \\
    ` ` ` ` < ` )___/\
    `` ` ` ` (3--(____)
    "...but to forget your duck, of course, means you're really screwed." - Gary Larson
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtN1YnoL46Q


  4. #4
    Join Date
    12-05-05
    Location
    Bismarck, ND
    Posts
    3,114
    Rep Power
    7749106
    So in his frame of mind, does that mean I can only get one speeding ticket and then I'm set?
    Thereís a promise I need you to make
    While Iím gone you take care of the love
    And Iíll deal with the hate.

    Donít worry about me; Iíll be all right
    Just care for your children and sleep tight
    Iíll keep you safe on my watch tonight
    ~
    On My Watch Tonight - Mike Corrado

  5. #5
    TheOldRhino's Avatar
    TheOldRhino is offline Corporal
    Join Date
    05-23-06
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    1,142
    Rep Power
    2707686
    Well, trying to keep the topic on track, let's look at just the facts of a murder case. If she was tried and convicted of the murder of her husband- whatever his name was- and after sentence she did it "for real"- would that be the same crime or a seperate one?

    Don't muddle the arguement with other crimes. Let's just focus on this particular instant.

    Is there no one who will say that it is the same crime?
    The virtue of spirit has no need for thanks or approval. Only the certain conviction that what has been done is right. -Jor El, as played by Marlon Brando

  6. #6
    Trojan 42's Avatar
    Trojan 42 is offline Retired Ninja
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    05-18-06
    Location
    Twixt the Moor and the Sea, England
    Posts
    3,003
    Rep Power
    4327281
    Me. If you have been convicted and served the time for killing someone (when you hadn't) and then you actually kill them, as they are already dead (or you couldn't have been found guilty ) you haven't committed any 'other' crime. So you walk. Seems fair to me, but then I've always had a soft spot for Ashley Judd.
    To be born an Englishman, is to be a winner in the Lottery of Life.



    I've Talked the Talk and I've Walked the Walk, now I Sit the Sit!

    It's not until you look at an Ant through a magnifying glass on a sunny day, that you realise just how often they burst into flames for no reason!

  7. #7
    Terminator's Avatar
    Terminator is offline BANNED
    Join Date
    12-03-05
    Location
    None of your business
    Posts
    16,064
    Rep Power
    0
    DOUBLE JEOPARDY - Being tried twice for the same offense; prohibited by the 5th Amendmentto the U.S. Constitution. '[T]he Double Jeopardy Clause protects against three distinct abuses: [1] a second prosecution for the same offense after acquittal; [2] a second prosecution for the same offense after conviction; and [3] multiple punishments for the same offense.' U.S. v. Halper, 490 U.S. 435, 440 (1989).

    Separate punishments in multiple criminal prosecution are constitutionally permissible, however, if the punishments are not based upon the same offenses. In Blockburger v. U.S., 284 U.S. 299 (1932), the Supreme Court held that punishment for two statutory offenses arising out of the same criminal act or transaction does not violate the Double Jeopardy Clause if 'each provision requires proof of an additional fact which the other does not.' Id. at 304.

    More recently, in U.S. v. Dixon, 113 S.Ct. 2849, 2856 (1993), the Court clarified the use of the 'same elements test' set forth in Blockburger when it over-ruled the 'same conduct' test announced in Grady v. Corbin, 495 U.S. 508 (1990), and held that the Double Jeopardy Clause bars successive prosecutions only when the previously concluded and subsequently charged offenses fail the 'same elements' test articulated in Blockburger. See also Gavieres v. U.S., 220 U.S. 338, 345 (1911) (early precedent establishing that in a subsequent prosecution '[w]hile it is true that the conduct of the accused was one and the same, two offenses resulted, each of which had an element not embraced in the other').

    In U.S. v. Felix, 112 S.Ct. 1377 (1992), the Court held that 'prosecution of a defendant for conspiracy, where certain of the overt acts relied upon by the Government are based on substantive offenses for which the defendant has been previously convicted, does not violate the Double Jeopardy Clause.' Felix, at 1380. See also Saccoccia, 18 F.3d at 798 (citing Felix, at 1384) ('A substantive crime and a conspiracy to commit that crime are not the same offense for double jeopardy purposes.')

    The Double Jeopardy Clause protects against multiple punishments for the same offense. Justices of Boston Municipal Court v. Lydon, 466 U.S. 294, 306 (1984).

    However, stretching the bounds of logic, the courts have decided that since the state and federal governments are separate sovereigns and therefore successive prosecutions based on the same underlying conduct do not violate the Double Jeopardy Clause if the prosecutions are brought by separate sovereigns. See, e.g., U.S. v. Koon, 34 F.3d 1416, 1438 (9th Cir.'94).

    But, double jeopardy may exist if the federal prosecutors were mere 'tools' of the state or that the federal proceeding was a 'sham' carried out at the behest of the state. Koon, at 1438.

    Close coordination between state and federal authorities, including 'the employment of agents of one sovereign to help the other sovereign in its prosecution,' does not implicate the Double Jeopardy Clause. U.S. v. Figueroa-Soto, 938 F.2d 1015, 1020 (9th Cir.'91), cert. denied, 502 U.S. 1098 (1992); accord U.S. v. Paiz, 905 F.2d 1014, 1024 (7th Cir.'90), cert. denied, 499 U.S. 924 (1991) (holding that the fact 'that an Indiana prosecutor was later designated a Special Deputy United States Attorney for purposes of a federal prosecution' was insufficient to establish a sham prosecution). Nor is a county's possible pecuniary interest in a federal proceeding sufficient to transform the federal government into a mere 'tool' of the county.

  8. #8
    Dinosaur32's Avatar
    Dinosaur32 is offline Long In The Tooth
    Join Date
    08-31-06
    Location
    Suffolk County, New York
    Posts
    132
    Rep Power
    44780
    The first crime, murder of hubby, gets wiped out when hubby shows up....conviction cannot stand. State opened opened up to malicious prosecution charges. When done for real, wife gets book thrown at her. This was just typical Hollywood imagination.

  9. #9
    General Patten's Avatar
    General Patten is offline Surgeon General
    Join Date
    06-11-06
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,104
    Rep Power
    37772
    yeah, i would think it would be considered as a second murder... even if she did kill the same guy twice. Second incident, second case, second prison term.

    hmm... now im curious...
    if you choke someone to death (till they're medically dead), revive them, and do it again, is that one murder or two?
    What if you kill them a couple times, revive them again, and let them live after that? Is that one murder, two murders, two attempted murders, or assault?

    haha... ok, im done being a jackass for now
    Last edited by General Patten; 10-25-06 at 09:58 AM.
    SURGEON GENERAL'S WARNING:
    Lead is very hazardous to your health.
    Always include Kevlar in your daily diet.


    "I always believe in being prepared, even when I'm dressed in white tie and tails."
    - Gen. George S. Patton, Jr.

  10. #10
    121Traffic's Avatar
    121Traffic is offline Just Us
    Verified LEO
    Site Moderator
    Join Date
    01-09-06
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    4,547
    Rep Power
    6332992
    Quote Originally Posted by Dinosaur32 View Post
    The first crime, murder of hubby, gets wiped out when hubby shows up....conviction cannot stand. State opened opened up to malicious prosecution charges. When done for real, wife gets book thrown at her. This was just typical Hollywood imagination.

    Yes, once the conviction gets overturned, her jail time is not "time-served" credit for her to cash in on in order to actually do the deed.

    I don't consider it muddling when other charges are mentioned. If I'm convicted of robbery, do my time and get out, and I'm later vindicated and the conviction overturned, that doesn't mean I can go and actually rob the place and take the money, just because I've already been punished for a seperate incident.

    You are tried and convicted on the merits of the case. If I'm convicted of an offense that allegedly occurred at 1345 on 10/25/06 (even if I didn't do it), that does not mean that I can get out of jail and go commit the same offense on 06/17/08 and expect to be protected from "double jeopardy."
    "If anything worthwhile comes of this tragedy, it should be the realization by every citizen that often the only thing that stands between them and losing everything they hold dear... is the man wearing a badge." -- Ronald Reagan, in the wake of the deaths of 4 CHP troopers in the Newhall Incident, 1970

    The opinions given in my posts DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "121Traffic" on O/R.

  11. #11
    Dinosaur32's Avatar
    Dinosaur32 is offline Long In The Tooth
    Join Date
    08-31-06
    Location
    Suffolk County, New York
    Posts
    132
    Rep Power
    44780
    The crime actually had to take place for jeopardy to attach. If your conviction is overturned for any reason other than the fact that the crime never occurred, jeopardy has attached for that crime on that day at that time. if you go back and commit the same crime (i.e. robbery of same victim) at another time, you have no double jeopardy protection, from same jurisdiction. Fed crimes usually trump State double jeopardy rules.

  12. #12
    Willowdared's Avatar
    Willowdared is offline Bendy not Breaky
    Join Date
    04-26-06
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    6,177
    Rep Power
    1401351
    You were wrongly convicted the first time.

    Second time is a seperate incident.

    However - I see a strong case for manslaughter.
    Molly Weasley makes Chuck Norris eat his vegetables.

    Do not puff, shade, skew, tailor, firm up, stretch, massage,
    or otherwise distort statements of fact.
    FBI Special Agent Coleen Rowley

  13. #13
    Piggybank Cop's Avatar
    Piggybank Cop is offline Nobody important.
    Join Date
    05-17-06
    Location
    Richmond VA
    Posts
    2,207
    Rep Power
    645058
    Give her a fine for littering, leaving the pos lying around.

    We are the thin blue line
    between you
    and all the money in the world.

    And no you can't have any.

  14. #14
    Ducky's Avatar
    Ducky is offline Enforcer General
    Supporting Member Lvl 3
    Join Date
    12-05-05
    Location
    Handbasket, enroute to somewhere hot.
    Posts
    11,108
    Rep Power
    7439165
    Quote Originally Posted by 1sgkelly View Post
    Give her a fine for littering, leaving the pos lying around.

    Or innapropriate handling of biohazardous waste material?
    \\
    ` ` ` ` < ` )___/\
    `` ` ` ` (3--(____)
    "...but to forget your duck, of course, means you're really screwed." - Gary Larson
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtN1YnoL46Q


  15. #15
    TheeBadOne's Avatar
    TheeBadOne is offline Why so serious?
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    03-13-06
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    1,119
    Rep Power
    7265082
    "When I'm driving along and I see a sign that says, CAUTION: SMALL CHILDREN AHEAD,
    I slow down, and then it occurs to me, I'm not afraid of small children"!

  16. #16
    Radar's Avatar
    Radar is offline We all bleed blue
    Supporting Member Lvl 3
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    05-18-06
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    877
    Rep Power
    1234963
    The conviction wasn't overthrown, she was convicted of killing her husband when he really faked his death and framed her, she went to jail, served her time, was released on parole, and then skipped on her parole officer to go kill her husband.

    It's kinda like the guy serving 30 some odd years for escaping from a Georgia prison. He was tried and convicted, then escaped from jail, judge threw 30 extra years on his sentance, and then he got cleared by dna evidence of his originally charged crime, but he's still serving 30 years for breaking out.

    She could be tried for parole violations, and the other misc. crimes she committed after she was released from jail, breaking and entering, hit and run, theft of a vehicle, etc. She could even be charged with murder the second time, but it's doubtful that she would serve time for something she has already served for. Thats not to say she won't be charged with murder again, and go before a judge again, it's just doubtful that she will serve much time if any for her murdering the same guy a second time.

    She would however be charged with everything else she did after her parole, and i'm willing to bet the judge won't like her much considering all of the facts.

    However, Keep in mind Brad's third to last paragraph:

    She was tried for murder in what? Washington State? or Federal Court? and then she actually murdered him in Louisianna? Well, She could be convicted in Louisianna Court for the actual murder if she was convicted in Washington State, or Federal Court, or she could be convicted in Federal Court if she was convicted the first time in WA state court. Different courts. If she wanted to get away with it, drag him back to Washigton and kill him in the same town you were convicted of it the first time. Of course, there still is Federal Court.

    Personally, it would have been easier, uh scratch that, legally safer for her to have brought it to light that he was alive, had faked his death, and frammed her. Then turn around and sue him, sue the state, and regain custody of her kid.
    Last edited by Radar; 10-25-06 at 09:55 PM.
    Here Speeder, Speeder, Speeder


    "Oderint dum metuant" - Caligula

    "How come you only call me when someone's dead?"

  17. #17
    Piggybank Cop's Avatar
    Piggybank Cop is offline Nobody important.
    Join Date
    05-17-06
    Location
    Richmond VA
    Posts
    2,207
    Rep Power
    645058
    "She would however be charged with everything else she did after her parole, and i'm willing to bet the judge won't like her much considering all of the facts."


    Jury might.

    We are the thin blue line
    between you
    and all the money in the world.

    And no you can't have any.

  18. #18
    Crimebytes2's Avatar
    Crimebytes2 is offline Banned
    Join Date
    04-14-06
    Location
    Council Bluffs, Iowa
    Posts
    2,005
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhino View Post
    Anyway, the plot is basically wife gets convicted for murdering husband. The husband faked his own death (and IIRC frames the wife). Wife gets out of jail and husband shows up. Wife goes to kill husband for framing her. Her logic is simple: Now that she has served time for killing him, she could legally kill him (for real this time) because she can't be charged with the same crime twice.
    Actually, Rhino, wife learns husband is alive while chatting with her son on the telephone. I just wanted to clear that up. I do have a question for you, though. I've watched the movie twice, but I don't remember the ending. Did she actually go through with the murder?

    In my civi opinion, I would think that once authorities learned that said husband faked his own death, the charges against her would be dropped. It would be as if no crime were ever committed, and if she did indeed kill him for faking his death and sending her to prison she would be tried on the current charges only. Am I right? Did I win? Do I get to go on a ride along with you?

 

 

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Double penetration
    By Norm357 in forum General Topics
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 07-14-07, 02:01 PM
  2. Double Cop Killer Gets Another Life Term
    By Tony in forum In the News
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-22-07, 09:23 AM
  3. Sportsman's Double
    By iso607 in forum Shenanigans
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 05-17-07, 10:19 AM
  4. Great Job on Double Checking
    By Pedro56 in forum In the News
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-31-07, 09:41 AM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •