Are prostitution and drug use victimless crimes?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhino

Okay. Again, you are mentioning other crimes. If they were smuggling cotton candy into the US and killing LEOs- would that make a difference to you somehow? I know it wouldn't make one with me.



What about them? Family members are already effected by alocohol in this fashion. So is alcohol abuse a victimful non-crime?

Humor me, for God sakes! "Someone" is the victim is a vague answer. In the scenario I provided- who is the victim?!?!?



All the more reason to legalize dope.



Why do I have the feeling I'm talking to myself? These are seperate crimes. People also commit crimes to feed themselves. So should we make food illegal too?




Okay, so why is one person getting high illegal? Where is the victim in one person getting high? You points only strengthen my arguement and point out how ridiciulous prohibition is.

I really am bothered by the fact that no one has still answered my question simply. 29 people so far have voted that there is a victim by me snorting a line of coke- but not one has told me who that vicitm is. Is it me? Is it Bea Arthur? Is it the pizza delivery guy? Who, dammit?!?!?

If I want to buy a hooker, who is the victim?

Not one person so far has voted that agrees with me? Are you all so easily led? Are you all so brainwashed by Nancy Reagan?

Hell, even one person said "because I said so". Great answer. I hope you don't vote. This thread alone proves why voting should be restricted.

Think, people! I know you can do it! Tell me who the victim is!:D

---

Another "victimless crime"

12 y/o who has "consensual sex"

If it were your 12 y/o, just because she said it was ok, does that make her NOT a victim?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhino

Think, people! I know you can do it! Tell me who the victim is!:D

---

The victim is the user and/or the one who pays for a prostitute. "No man liveth unto himself" and "can a man take fire into his bossom and not be burned?" They can't do these things and not affect others around them and even when they think they are only doing it to themselves they are still harming someone, themselves. So the victim is the user.

They are lying to themselves and thinking no one's getting hurt and so they continue on and go further with the drug use. It costs them money to continue to use drugs. Where will they get the money if they are constantly high or coming off of a high? They certainly can't work and don't want to work. They become leeches.

Neither are victimless, but like fscf I'm too lazy to go into a long winded explanation! :p

You cheapskate Rhino - $1 for sex?!;) damn everything is cheaper in the US!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OFK

Another "victimless crime"

12 y/o who has "consensual sex"

If it were your 12 y/o, just because she said it was ok, does that make her NOT a victim?

---

We're talking about grown adults who are capable of fending for themselves. Don't dumb down your side of the arguement by trying to bring in children or the mentally challenged, please. It's just unseemly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by isthatlegal?

The victim is the user and/or the one who pays for a prostitute. "No man liveth unto himself" and "can a man take fire into his bossom and not be burned?" They can't do these things and not affect others around them and even when they think they are only doing it to themselves they are still harming someone, themselves. So the victim is the user.

---

So why is alcohol legal? Why is tobacco legal? Why is MSG legal? Why is sugar legal? Why is caffeine legal? Why is prostitution legal in certain states?

Why is it you or the government's business what I (or another adult) choose to do with our own bodies?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by isthatlegal?

They are lying to themselves and thinking no one's getting hurt and so they continue on and go further with the drug use. It costs them money to continue to use drugs. Where will they get the money if they are constantly high or coming off of a high? They certainly can't work and don't want to work. They become leeches.

---

You mean like people that are addicted to Cola and McDonald's?

Rhino

You still have not answered my question...you are dealing in the fantasy world of drugs and prostitution being legal and regulated, (other than hooking in Nevada), and base your arguments on comparing them to alchohol and other currently legal things. Lets deal with the way things are, you cannot use drugs and not have the long list of victims as stated by others here. Much like what has been discussed in the immigration forum, simply by possesing the drug, you have aided in the exploitation of various people, thus making them victims. Same with prostitution as it stands now. The future may change, but this is the way it is now.

Well Rhino, I put on my asbestos bra and panties (the pretty ones with pink ribbons) I'll take ya on!

Nothing occurs in a vacuum. The person that uses drugs, or sells their body is probably at point "L," in that journey of "A to Z." There are victims scattered all along the way, and included the person at the epicenter, and everyone they touch.

I don't really buy lumping alcohol in with opiates, because they react differently on the body.

Are their negative effects to abusing alcohol? Of course - and it can be passed on thru generations. Used responsibly, and there are some health benefits, and no loss of higher thinking skills.

Opiates suppress your brains ability to produce seratonin, so you suffer immediate physical repercussions. You may feel no pain when you're high, but you feel no empathy either, so you might just leave your baby in the tub to drown.

Meth is toxic to everyone around it - even if they don't take it - that's why my agency now removes children from homes where meth is present. It's a Hazmat callout for goodness sakes!

And pot - as benign as most perceive it to be - kills brain cells. Starting with the first toke. The cells killed seem to be the ones that handle short-term memory. "Was I supposed to be I work right now?" "Where was that emergency shut-off switch?"

As for prostitution? No one wakes up thinking - "Wow, I wanna be a whore when I grow up!" There's a whole lot of denigration that happens before anyone reaches the point of choosing to be a human masturbation sleeve.

Them's my reasons, emotional to be sure, but shaped by real life observations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhino

So why is alcohol legal? Why is tobacco legal? Why is MSG legal? Why is sugar legal? Why is caffeine legal? Why is prostitution legal in certain states?

---

you asked me to tell you who the victim is in the case of prostitution and drugs and I did. Now you want to move on to other things? Does this mean you concede that the victim is the user? If it were up to me alcohol, tobacco and prostitution would be illegal. The others are up for debate.

Quote:

---

Why is it you or the government's business what I (or another adult) choose to do with our own bodies?

---

We don't live in a bubble. What we do affects other people whether we'd like to think so or not.

Quote:

---

You mean like people that are addicted to Cola and McDonald's?

---

Alright, now how in the world did you know that? It's scaring me what you all know about us.

And I can give up chocolate anytime I want too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhino

We're talking about grown adults who are capable of fending for themselves. Don't dumb down your side of the arguement by trying to bring in children or the mentally challenged, please. It's just unseemly

---

OK:p

Everyone here is missing Rhino's point. The act of injecting a drug into your vein, removed from all outside factors and influences, is indeed a victimless crime. The act of inserting your penis into a willing woman who is allowing you to do so in exchange for money is, indeed, a victimless crime.

However, neither the crimes of drug use or prostitution (the street walking kind) are mutually exclusive from the crimes that spur because of their proliferation. Everyone here has done a good job of covering that.

I don't buy the legalization bit either. There's always going to be someone on the black market offering a similar or better product than the government or legal distributors, for cheaper. There will still be meth labs, there will still be coke coming in from other countries, and there will still be kids huffing paint. Just like after prohibition (though to a lesser extent), there were still people making moonshine, and there are still kids drinking NyQuil at parties. Licensed prostitution is legal in the state of Nevada, but you can still get a handjob for $20 bucks on the strip.

Either way, I don't think society is responsible enough to handle mass legalization.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trooper_hopeful_51

You still have not answered my question..

---

Okay- what was your question?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PDawg

Well Rhino, I put on my asbestos bra and panties (the pretty ones with pink ribbons) I'll take ya on!

---

Bring it! :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PDawg

Nothing occurs in a vacuum. The person that uses drugs, or sells their body is probably at point "L," in that journey of "A to Z." There are victims scattered all along the way, and included the person at the epicenter, and everyone they touch.

---

Okay. Why?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PDawg

I don't really buy lumping alcohol in with opiates, because they react differently on the body.

---

They all affect judgement, perception, and inhibitions. And whether you like it your not alcohol is is a depressant, which is a type of drug- the same category as oxycodone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PDawg

Are their negative effects to abusing alcohol? Of course - and it can be passed on thru generations. Used responsibly, and there are some health benefits, and no loss of higher thinking skills.

---

If you say that about alochol, you are saying that about all depressants. I disagree with the "no loss of higher thinking skills" part.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PDawg

Opiates suppress your brains ability to produce seratonin, so you suffer immediate physical repercussions. You may feel no pain when you're high, but you feel no empathy either, so you might just leave your baby in the tub to drown.

---

Be careful, because if you don't know your drugs, I'll call you on it. There are three types: depressants, stimulants, and hallucinogens. Generally speaking, each type has a similar effect on the body. Depressants such as codine and alcohol have similar effects- they may be stronger or weaker depending on dosage, of course.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PDawg

Meth is toxic to everyone around it - even if they don't take it - that's why my agency now removes children from homes where meth is present. It's a Hazmat callout for goodness sakes!

---

That's spillover from the drug underground. If we can establish that there is no victim, then that provides a solid arguement for the end of drug prohibition. If we end drug prohibition, meth labs like that would virtually disappear.

However, if that's not good enough for you, then I'd argue that those are victims of OSHA violations, not drug use.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PDawg

And pot - as benign as most perceive it to be - kills brain cells. Starting with the first toke. The cells killed seem to be the ones that handle short-term memory. "Was I supposed to be I work right now?" "Where was that emergency shut-off switch?"

---

Alcohol kills brain cells, too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PDawg

As for prostitution? No one wakes up thinking - "Wow, I wanna be a whore when I grow up!" There's a whole lot of denigration that happens before anyone reaches the point of choosing to be a human masturbation sleeve.

---

No one probably says they want to be a stripper, a porn star, or a sanitation worker, either- but these are all legal professions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by isthatlegal?

you asked me to tell you who the victim is in the case of prostitution and drugs and I did. Now you want to move on to other things?

---

No. That means I am trying to understand how these people are victims. Other than victims of their own stupidity. And if that was against the law- then my God- we'd never have enough prisons to hold all the offenders.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by isthatlegal?

Does this mean you concede that the victim is the user? If it were up to me alcohol, tobacco and prostitution would be illegal.

---

But why? Just because they are bad for you? So is chocolate...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by isthatlegal?

And I can give up chocolate anytime I want too.

---

Uh-huh... sure... :boink:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhino

But why? Just because they are bad for you?

---

It seems you want to take away all the ill-effects and say there's no consequence to drug usage. You can't use drugs of this nature and not have some consequences. When was the last time someone sat alone in a room and used drugs only one time and never touched them again? Several...they all died.

Quote:

---

So is chocolate...

---

Hey, that's not fair! Chocolate comes from a bean and is therefore a vegetable. Every woman knows that fact.

Quote:

---

Uh-huh... sure...

---

I can too quit.

Rhino

Sorry, I should have restated, as I have a tendancy to just run on at the mouth sometimes...LOL...

The basic question concerned a flaw in your premise. Your argument seems to be based on how you think things should be, not as they are. With the current environment, is it possible for someone to do drugs without there being a victim? Even if that victim is themselves? Others have laid out very detailed descriptions of those who are victims, and your response seems always to deal with the fruit of the poisoned tree...ie if it WAS legal, they wouldnt be hurting anyone. But its not legal at this point

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhino

Be careful, because if you don't know your drugs, I'll call you on it. There are three types: depressants, stimulants, and hallucinogens. Generally speaking, each type has a similar effect on the body. Depressants such as codine and alcohol have similar effects- they may be stronger or weaker depending on dosage, of course.

---

I said opiates Mr Poopypants! That means derived from the opium poppy!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhino

No one probably says they want to be a stripper, a porn star, or a sanitation worker, either- but these are all legal professions.

---

They are not even in the same catagory!
:p

[QUOTE=Rhino;119177]If I choose to sit in my home and shoot up heroine (I'm not one of these "only marijuana should be legalized" pussies- I say all drugs should be legalized) who is the victim?

QUOTE]

im just curious...if you truly believe that all drugs should be legalized, do you lock people up for possessing drugs?

as a police officer, there are laws i dont agree with, and when im faced with people violating those laws, i choose to ignore them. ie...in my state, it is illegal to commit adultery (on the books). i feel its morally wrong, but dont necessarily believe it should be prosecuted criminally, so i would never lock someone up for committing adultery. before you say it, ill admit thats a bit of an extreme example.

the war on drugs is a huge part of policing. if you are against it, what do you do all day at work?

im not trying to be critical of you, because youve made a lot of excellent points. i just dont understand how a police officer could seriously lobby for the legalization of all drugs. especially after seeing what drugs do to people on the streets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by isthatlegal?

It seems you want to take away all the ill-effects and say there's no consequence to drug usage. You can't use drugs of this nature and not have some consequences. When was the last time someone sat alone in a room and used drugs only one time and never touched them again? Several...they all died.

---

But again, I can make the same arguement with substances that are already legal. We seem to be going in circles- I'll expand further down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by isthatlegal?

Hey, that's not fair! Chocolate comes from a bean and is therefore a vegetable. Every woman knows that fact.
I can too quit.

---

Cocaine comes from a bean, too- the same bean as a matter of fact. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trooper_hopeful_51

With the current environment, is it possible for someone to do drugs without there being a victim?

---

Victim of what, specifically. Humor me- I have a point to make here. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PDawg

They are not even in the same catagory!
:p

---

Yes they are: The category of "jobs nobody wants when they are a kid" category. And prostitution is legal in some states, so it's a valid arguement.

Folks, let me try and establish my point a little more clearly. I'm not trying to change the question to get a better answer.

When we ask "Are these victimless crimes?" We have to establish the reasoning behind asking these questions- otherwise we go in circles like we have been. Why ask? Because most victimless crimes are redundant, and therefore unnecessary.

So the reason I keep saying "If drugs/prostitution were legal..." is my way of reverse-engineering the question. I don't want people to vote because their high school councilor told them "Drugs are bad, m'kay?" Give me some logical reasoning.

Yes, of course substance abuse creates victims. Victims of robberies. Victims child abuse and neglect. Victims of public order.

But my arguement is that these are crimes unto themselves. To me saying "the dope made me do it" is just an excuse. Just like when one goes drinking: You know how you act when you are under the influence of a substance. As an adult, you know that drugs are not good for you. So if you make the choice of doing drugs, and then commit a crime as a result, then it's you're own fault. Just having the drug does not a victim make. It's the totality of the circumstance.

That's why I say legalize drugs- take away that excuse. So us already over-worked law enforcement can concentrate on these knuckleheads- not the ones that are taking a dime bag to their buddies' house.

ITL asked me "When was the last time someone just sat alone in their house and did drugs?" The fact is, people do it all the time- but we don't get called out when people are just doing drugs. It's when they start showing their ass or if it's kids doing it and getting caught.

I hope this clears things up. I'm also disappointed no one else as at least voted "yes" (even if they want to remain silent) because I happen to know for a fact I'm not the only cop here that thinks this way.

OK Rhino, I will attempt to humor you....the victim I am speaking of would be the addict themself. Hypothetically, if a person goes and gets liquored up, climbs behind the wheel, and plows into a telephone pole and kills himself, is he not, in the purest definition of the phrase, a victim of drunk driving? Sure, he brought it upon himself, but he is still a victim. Much in the same way, if a person gets loopy on LSD, climbs out their balcony and jumps, are they not a victim of drug use? Also, stating again that we don't live in a vacum, if that person jumps out the window, and happens to land on my car, I am a definate victim of his drug use. Sure, you can say the property damage is a seperate crime, but it stems from the initial act, and therefor is inseperably linked.

OH and FYI Rhino, I TOTALLY respect your opinion here, this is the best discussion I have had on this subject in forever! thanks for being a great advocate for what you believe

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tapout

im just curious...if you truly believe that all drugs should be legalized, do you lock people up for possessing drugs?

---

These are fair questions- I'm glad you asked. If you've seen The Untouchables, then you pretty much have my answer. It's the law of the land. These knuckleheads know it's against the law, and I'm paid to do a job, so I do it. Because while drugs are underground, they are dangerous.

I just believe drugs should be legal because the "War on Drugs" is not winable. Ever. We will defeat global terrorism before we wipe out the drug trade in the US. Period.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tapout

as a police officer, there are laws i dont agree with, and when im faced with people violating those laws, i choose to ignore them. ie...in my state, it is illegal to commit adultery (on the books). i feel its morally wrong, but dont necessarily believe it should be prosecuted criminally, so i would never lock someone up for committing adultery.

---

Never say never. Granted, I've been known to excercise my officer descretion on many occasions.

However, if I came to you saying my 16 year old daughter had sex with her 17 year old boyfriend and I want him arrested! (Which happens) You can't charge him with statutory rape (in my state, since 16 is the age of consent). However you can charge him interference with custody (in my state) since he kept a minor out against the permission of the parents.

However, I would then tell "dad" that since his princess was willing, she can be charged with adultry. This usually keeps the dad's from ruining the life of a 17 year old kid who was only guilty of being a horny teenager.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tapout

t
im not trying to be critical of you, because youve made a lot of excellent points. i just dont understand how a police officer could seriously lobby for the legalization of all drugs. especially after seeing what drugs do to people on the streets.

---

I'm not offended, I get that a lot- and that's why a lot of cops who agree with me are affraid to say so.

There is an organization out there called L.E.A.P.- Law Enforcement Against Prohibition that agrees with me.
I was, for a long time, scared to express my views for obvious reasons. But after realizing I wasn't alone in these beliefs, I became more vocal.

And working in a jail, seeing young adults getting brought in and taking up bed space because they smoked pot while rapists and child molesters were getting reduced bonds because of the lack of bed space only strengthened my arguement.

Hope I answered your questions, bro. :thumb:

Edit: While viewing the LEAP website (I haven't been there in a while), I noticed this awesome Video. If you want to get a better idea into where I'm coming from, please watch it. :D

you did answer my questions, thank you.

still dont agree with you, but you make a valid argument

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhino

And working in a jail, seeing young adults getting brought in and taking up bed space because they smoked pot while rapists and child molesters were getting reduced bonds because of the lack of bed space only strengthened my arguement.

:D

---

by the way, around here, people dont spend any time in jail for smoking pot...they are not the ones causing the robbers, rapists and child molesters to get reduced bonds...its all the other robbers, rapists, and child molesters. you just cant house them all.

ive never seen anyone go to jail on a possession charge, unless the words with intent to distrube followed. other then that, its always a recog, followed by pbj or suspended sentence and probation

They both are not victimless crimes.
Tweakers what do they do to support their habits???
Steal peoples shit. <~~~ the victims.

Prostitution--

I believe the prostitutes are the victims . Some of these prostitutes were born into it literally.