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View Poll Results: Are prostitution and drug use victimless crimes?

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  • Yes

    9 10.84%
  • No

    70 84.34%
  • Only drug use is a victimless crime

    1 1.20%
  • Only prostitution is a victimless crime

    3 3.61%
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  1. #81
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    OMG- I posted a reply but it's gone. WTF? I'll post again later...
    The virtue of spirit has no need for thanks or approval. Only the certain conviction that what has been done is right. -Jor El, as played by Marlon Brando

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhino View Post
    OMG- I posted a reply but it's gone. WTF? I'll post again later...
    Oh did you?

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virginian View Post
    OMFG You are a pisser.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by OFK View Post
    Rhino,

    Just a quickie question. Are you for the legalization of marijuana or all drugs?
    All drugs. It's not about the effect on the body, it's about my belief that the government has no right to tell me what I can and cannot put into my body. If you are for keeping drugs illegal, then it must because drugs are bad for you. So are cheeseburgers, so we should make them illegal as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    Rhino,
    Let me ask something; the majority of crimes are committed by drug users correct?? (robberies, thefts etc.)
    That's kind of a loaded question. Because "drug users" could be defined as anyone who is addicted to any substance- including legal ones. However, to answer your questions, I haven't seen any hard data one way or another. I don't think that's the main reason for robberies and theft in my area, but if that was the case for the US as a whole, it wouldn't surprise me.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    These users are committing the crimes to feed their habit, or a few because their mind is altered and they are doing something out of their normal contxt, correct??
    To feed their habit? Such as alcohol, tobacco, gambling, as well as illegal drugs? Sure, I'll go alone with that.

    I'm not going along the "mind is altered" statement. Usually if their mind is altered they do crazy stuff like walk down the street naked.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    So how would making these drugs legal stop this behaviour. Yes it would make the drug more readily available. But if they didnt have the money to buy it before why would they have it now when its legal??
    I never said it would stop this behavior. No more than legalizing alcohol does. What I am saying is those that want to do drugs already do them. How many people have you heard say "Man, I wish meth was legal so I could get hooked on it"?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    And once you add the taxes and other governement add-ons to the price it wont be any cheaper than it is now.
    I disagree, but it's a trivial point.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    You may cut out the middle man by making it legal, but you wont stop the crime. In fact I would bet that since more peaopl will be able to use the drugs, and become addicted to it you might have more crimes.
    Like I said, the people that are doing it are already doing it. The only thing that may rise with the legalization of drugs is the use of marijuana- and even so, who cares?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    Its proven that some drugs are so addictive that the majority of people who try it once become addicted.
    You mean like alcohol, gambling, and nicotine?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    You also say that you dont care why someone commits a robbery, just that they did. But I do, if the pre-cursor to the crime is drugs then we as a society have to do whatever we can to help control the pre-cursor so the robbery doesnt occur to begin with.
    You never answered my question: If someone said they were robbing people to buy a TV, does that mean we should make TVs illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    In your rational of thinking then you believe that the act of driving drunk should be legal, as long as he makes it home he isnt hurting anyone and there is no victim.
    No, it's different. Getting drunk and then operating a machine that could kill is a disregard for safety. It's also a traffic law, and I'm a firm believer that driving is a privilege and not a right. (Happy, OFK?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Virginian View Post
    Funny! But for the record, I've never done an illegal drug. Whenever I smell burning marijuana as a teenager it always gave me migraines. Now that I come in contact with it more on the job it's not as bad, but I still get them if I smell too much of it.
    The virtue of spirit has no need for thanks or approval. Only the certain conviction that what has been done is right. -Jor El, as played by Marlon Brando

  5. #85
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    Rhino, would I be correct in assuming you lean more toward libertarian? I agree with the need for less of government intrusion into our lives, totally on board there....but as a society based on a democratic republic, we agree on rules. Your analogy of drugs versus food, cigs, or gambling don't work for me, because of the fact that in our society one is illegal, and the rest are not. And as far as gambling, casinos are legal in parts of the country, and yet I am sure as a LEO, you would agree that there is no place for craps games on every corner? Sometimes in a society we must protect people from themselves. Drugs have no positive purpose, therefor as a society we have made the decision that they are illegal. Therefor, people usuing them victimize other members of the society daily.

  6. #86
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    I have to becareful with this subject...... I tend to go over board on how I feel about it.

    I'll start with the easy one, if there is an easy one.

    Ok, Prostitution... Yes, there are victims. Many of the women are victims of childhood sex abuse, drug addicted, or suffer from a myriad of mental health issues. So, for a guy to go shag one that's crack addicted, HIV+, and has a mental disorder, just because he has to get a nut off, is abuse. Period.

    I would like to see an actual study that shows the actual of mentally and physically healthy women that choose prostution as a legitimate profession. I bet the number is very few and far between.

    There are also secondary victims - children that prick their themsevles on discarded needs, or find used condoms, in their backyard or school yards. Neighbourhoods that are under siege from cruising "johns" looking for a date. This becomes a "stressor" on whole neighbourhoods.

    Now on drug use.. as I have many times before.. Comparing legalization or decriminalization with the successes of the end of prohibition, gambling, or nicotine, only strengthens the arguement to continue the "war on drugs".

    Also, saying the governemt has no right to tell you want to put in your body is nonsense. The government provides all kinds of resources for us, and it has been charged with looking out (when they can) for the interests of its citizens. Imagine life without a government or it's benefits? Try giving up on the roads you drive on, or money put into healthcare. We simply don't get to opt out of a specific law because we don't like it.

    And I personally believe that collectively voting to change that law is a HUGE mistake. As was the end of prohibition. I'm willing to bet that a couple of days worth of impaired driving injuries and fatalities total more human suffering than all the murders and injuries sustained due to prohibition.

    Also, as with alcohol, the social cost and healthcare costs would far exceed the current spending on the "war", even if taxed and regulated.

    But that's just my 2cents CND (1.6 cents USD)

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by trooper_hopeful_51 View Post
    Rhino, would I be correct in assuming you lean more toward libertarian?
    Pretty much. The only thing time I've disagreed with the libertarian platform is when it comes to foreign policy. But for the most part, yes- I'm a libertarian.

    Quote Originally Posted by trooper_hopeful_51 View Post
    I agree with the need for less of government intrusion into our lives, totally on board there....but as a society based on a democratic republic, we agree on rules.
    So you're saying if the majority agrees on a certain rule, then it should be law?

    Quote Originally Posted by trooper_hopeful_51 View Post
    Your analogy of drugs versus food, cigs, or gambling don't work for me, because of the fact that in our society one is illegal, and the rest are not.
    Spoken like a good little sheep. Don't you dare ask why something is the law. Just be happy that it's the law and eat your wheaties.

    Quote Originally Posted by trooper_hopeful_51 View Post
    And as far as gambling, casinos are legal in parts of the country, and yet I am sure as a LEO, you would agree that there is no place for craps games on every corner?
    Why not? There's a bingo game in many churches.

    Quote Originally Posted by trooper_hopeful_51 View Post
    Sometimes in a society we must protect people from themselves.
    Fine. If that's what you believe, then that's what you believe. But don't bring that argument if you believe alcohole, tobacco, caffine, or MSG shouldn't be illegal, too- because it's hypocritical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cst.SB View Post
    Ok, Prostitution... Yes, there are victims. Many of the women are victims of childhood sex abuse, drug addicted, or suffer from a myriad of mental health issues.
    Okay, you've identified the victims of sexual abuse, neglect, or any number of other crimes against children. But you haven't identified who the victim is if I pay a woman money to have sex with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cst.SB View Post
    So, for a guy to go shag one that's crack addicted, HIV+, and has a mental disorder, just because he has to get a nut off, is abuse.
    Oh, I get it. But if the hooker is found to be perfectly healthy, mentally and physically, then it's okay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cst.SB View Post
    I would like to see an actual study that shows the actual of mentally and physically healthy women that choose prostitution as a legitimate profession.
    But you don't have those numbers and so anything you try to pass off as fact is speculation.

    What if many prostitutes are- now hold on- are actually doing it just for the money? There was an article I read called "Whores and Mercenaries". It was quite good and talked about how these two professions aren't too dissimilar.

    How many more women (or men) would turn to that lifestyle if it was legal where they lived?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cst.SB View Post
    There are also secondary victims - children that prick their themsevles on discarded needs, or find used condoms, in their backyard or school yards.
    How does finding a used condom make you a victim? At any rate, what laws do we have now that protects them from pricking themselves on a needle? How would not legalizing drugs prevent it? Again, you are bringing up points that have nothing to do with the arguement. Whether drugs or prostitution is legal or not, these problems will be there- it's not going to change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cst.SB View Post
    Neighbourhoods that are under siege from cruising "johns" looking for a date. This becomes a "stressor" on whole neighbourhoods.
    And why do the prostitutes take to the streets? Because running a cathouse would be illegal. How many street walkers do you see in the parts of Nevada where prostitution is legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cst.SB View Post
    Now on drug use.. as I have many times before.. Comparing legalization or decriminalization with the successes of the end of prohibition, gambling, or nicotine, only strengthens the argument to continue the "war on drugs".
    Man, I was hoping you'd support this statement. How does it strengthen the argument?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cst.SB View Post
    Also, saying the governemt has no right to tell you want to put in your body is nonsense. The government provides all kinds of resources for us, and it has been charged with looking out (when they can) for the interests of its citizens. Imagine life without a government or it's benefits? Try giving up on the roads you drive on, or money put into healthcare.
    I think we all agree that driving is a privilege and and not a right. So traffic laws don't apply to this argument. And health care? My government doesn't pay for health care, and I hope it never does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cst.SB View Post
    We simply don't get to opt out of a specific law because we don't like it.
    No, we repeal laws that don't make sense. We repeal laws that do more harm than good. Why did we repeal the law on prohibition of alcohol?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cst.SB View Post
    And I personally believe that collectively voting to change that law is a HUGE mistake.
    For the most part, I agree. I believe the prohibition against narcotics should end because it's the only solution to ending the "War on Drugs". Not because it's popular.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cst.SB View Post
    Also, as with alcohol, the social cost and healthcare costs would far exceed the current spending on the "war", even if taxed and regulated.
    We don't have socialized healthcare, and I believe that's one reason why the concept is a bad idea anyway. But, that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
    The virtue of spirit has no need for thanks or approval. Only the certain conviction that what has been done is right. -Jor El, as played by Marlon Brando

  8. #88
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    Rhino,

    I know that you will attempt to refute each and every opinion that I have, you may think they are even “out there” or irrelevant but you put a lot of thought and work into your posts, so I will attempt to do the same and perhaps maybe you can consider a slightly different perspective or the bigger picture so to speak.

    Organized crime is rampant and will always exist. The war on drugs in my opinion is one that will never be won and it should not be won. The drug conflict is one that is needed for many reasons. If the war on drugs were ever won by way of total legalization, it would put criminals out of the drug business and they would have to find an alternative source for their income which would have dire consequences. Human trafficking and child pornography is big and getting bigger. People pay big moolah for drugs, people and kiddie porn. People pay big for what is not legal, because that is just the way it is and criminals big and small are determined to make a living at any cost. Legalizing what is “now” in the underground will only increase and create more sinister networks.

    Another big problem with legalization is that the drug addiction rate would go through the roof. There is no moderation in this area with legalization. To me that is a no brainer. People make choices and the majority make bad ones at one time or another and by legalizing therefore “promoting” you are only asking for more addiction, leading to less productive citizens and more drainers on the medical community and society, not to mention the lives threatened.

    For many it only takes one experience to put their lives and the lives of others in harms way. http://www.lifeormeth.com/facesofmeth/4514974755(OK so the ONE chick looked hotter before)


    Then there are the drugs themselves which all have various breakdowns. We already see the cause and effects with alcohol, but with alcohol, it’s manufactured and measured without the presence of other drugs or chemicals. Order a beer or 10 and you now what you will get. Pot that is sold is likely laced with other drugs,but there is no consistency with processing. Psychotropic drugs that are even prescribed such as ambien are literally a lethal weapon and available to those who are prescribed and those who are not compliments of the underground. A simple google search on “Ambien sleepwalking” or “Ambien memory loss” deaths etc will show that this highly advertised drug, along with others will put people in a state (and a desired one by drug addicts) that they are not aware of any actions they are doing, so they have absolutely no control of their actions. (and this is their defense in court)

    By legalizing drugs, you open a door to ALL drugs synthetic, or not. You open the door for things like other hypnotic drugs, benzodiazepines (tranq) phencyclidine (pcp) methaqualone (meth) gamma-hydroxybutyric acid (ghb) so now you have a whole plethora of crimes that can occur as a result whether you take them or not. I have personally taken ambien and having never done a drug in my life, (not even pot) I can say that my desperate call for a few hours sleep did not compare to the consequences. The overdose level is one additional itty bitty pill TOTAL and REALLY friggin small. Just imagine an addiction person responding to this. How easy is it to take one tiny pill and expect a reaction, nothing happen, you say it’s not working, take another and you can practically lose control of your entire life in a matter of minutes.

    Legalizing drugs would be irresponsible and only create more chaos in an already perverted and violent society in addition to escalating already huge human rights issues as well as create new ones.
    Last edited by OFK; 11-18-06 at 10:29 AM.

  9. #89
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    I'm getting tired of repeating myself. It seems rather than address the points I bring up, many just make the same point again and force me to repeat myself. Which, in my book, tells me there is no valid argument for my points.

    I'm only going to hit on a couple things.

    Quote Originally Posted by OFK View Post
    Organized crime is rampant and will always exist.
    Organized crime is going to get their money wherever it is. I believe they are the biggest opponents for drug legalization because it would drive them out of business. To suggest that child pornography and slavery would go up if drugs were legalized is ridiculous. They are going to go where the money is- whether it's legal or not.

    I still believe there would be an underground drug market- just as there is an underground alcohol market (moonshining) but it's going to be every bit as uncommon.


    Quote Originally Posted by OFK View Post
    Another big problem with legalization is that the drug addiction rate would go through the roof.
    Okay, (and here I go repeating myself) once again, the people that want to do drugs are already doing them.


    Quote Originally Posted by OFK View Post
    Then there are the drugs themselves which all have various breakdowns. We already see the cause and effects with alcohol, but with alcohol, it’s manufactured and measured without the presence of other drugs or chemicals. Order a beer or 10 and you now what you will get. Pot that is sold is likely laced with other drugs,but there is no consistency with processing.
    Exactly my point! If drugs were legalized and regulated then you wouldn't have that problem.

    People, are you reading what I'm saying? Like, at all? Some of you make it sound like i am advocating people standing on street corners selling the crap. What I'm trying to tell you is that if you regulate drug manufacture and put it on store shelves, then the guy on the street corner will have to find a job somewhere else.

    I'm not just saying "legalize" drugs. I'm saying CONTROL drugs. If you have a bull charging at you what's easier: stopping the bull cold in his tracks or pushing his head to one side to get him where you want him to go?


    Quote Originally Posted by OFK View Post
    By legalizing drugs, you open a door to ALL drugs synthetic, or not. You open the door for things like other hypnotic drugs, benzodiazepines (tranq) phencyclidine (pcp) methaqualone (meth) gamma-hydroxybutyric acid (ghb) so now you have a whole plethora of crimes that can occur as a result whether you take them or not.
    Would you rather have these drugs on the street as-is, or would you rather have these drugs carefully manufactured in measured amounts and sold in limited quantities?


    Quote Originally Posted by OFK View Post
    Legalizing drugs would be irresponsible and only create more chaos in an already perverted and violent society in addition to escalating already huge human rights issues as well as create new ones.
    Legalizing drugs would bring order to the chaos that is already there. And human rights issues? Don't get me started on the human rights that have been violated because of the "Drug War". How many wrong doors do you read about being kicked in by one agency or another because they were looking for drugs?
    The virtue of spirit has no need for thanks or approval. Only the certain conviction that what has been done is right. -Jor El, as played by Marlon Brando

  10. #90
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    Rino, I respect you and I agree with you on most issues. Which why I wanted to avoid this thread altogether. But alas I am weak and always up for a good and "healthy" debate.

    As for the US private health care system, there are many aspects of it that are publicly funded. (VA Hospitals and Health Care) According to this document, from the Journal of American Medical Association, the US government in 1999 spent approximately $548 billion of health care.

    I can back the rest of my statements up as well. Or better yet, you can research the issue yourself!

    As for the "condom" if you had kids (and you may and I am sorry that I don't know if you do, or not) and lived in a neighbourhood with hookers and Johns and constantly found condoms in your back yard, or on your kids playground, trust me, you'd feel like a victim.

    Also, if you could find a woman that was healthy both mentally and physically, that was willing to have sex with you for money, then great. But how long is she going to stay that way. Look at the porn industry that requires HIV tests before movies, and many of them have still contracted HIV, and their behaviour is no where near as risky as a prostitutes.

  11. #91
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    Rhino...

    First off, I would agree there are many libertarian views I could back, so I can respect your point of view. Second, you think you are tired of repeating yourself? LOL So this will be my last attempt here on this thread, I am not naive enough to believe I can change your mind, and thats not the intention.

    Addressing your points, I am not saying that if the majority agrees on a certain rule, it should be law, I am saying thats the fact of life in America today. Thats the definition of democracy, majority rules. I don't always agree with the outcome, but I do believe in the process. I am not a sheep, I would be if I chose to cave in my arguments and follow you I suppose though...lol...you make an assumption thinking I have not questioned why it is law. I just choose to believe that there are not enough significant drawbacks to caffine and MSG to warrant the same banishment as drugs....although I would point out there are regulations concerning those items, and even more strict regulations concerning alchohol and cigs, that the government imposes to again, protect people from themselves. I dont think it hypocritical at all. We do NOT have unconditional freedom in America, never have, never will. We are a nation of laws, thats why we haven't self destructed...YET. I find it difficult to compare a church bingo game to support missions in the Congo to a bunch of punks shooting dice to feed their...ahem..drug habit. Apples and oranges in my opinion. As I have stated before, I have a harder time arguing the prostitution issue with you, because in some ways I think it should be legal and regulated. I view its damage as more mental than physical. However, I would ask you in your hypothetical...do you honestly believe that someone who wasn't a victim of something, drugs, abuse, etc, would rationally sell their body to complete strangers for 25 bux a pump? By definition, in my opinion, someone who would do that IS a victim. If I could go back to your sheep comment for a second; You are a LEO, and I am not..yet. You don't believe in illegality of drugs or prostitution. Do you still enforce those laws in the field? Do you still bust people for possesion, even of just paraphernalia? If you do while not believeing in it, then are you not the sheep you accused me of being?
    Last edited by Doc_Holliday; 11-18-06 at 02:03 PM. Reason: spelling

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cst.SB View Post
    Rino, I respect you and I agree with you on most issues. Which why I wanted to avoid this thread altogether. But alas I am weak and always up for a good and "healthy" debate.
    No worries, bro. I respect the opinions of most people that post on this forum, so it's easier to keep things civil. And many of the arguments that are brought up are good points and have challeneged the way I look at the issue. That's why I love a healthy debate myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cst.SB View Post
    US government in 1999 spent approximately $548 billion
    I'm willing to be it's on illegals and those already getting a government hand out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cst.SB View Post
    As for the "condom" if you had kids (and you may and I am sorry that I don't know if you do, or not) and lived in a neighbourhood with hookers and Johns and constantly found condoms in your back yard, or on your kids playground, trust me, you'd feel like a victim.
    I understand. But again, this occurred while prostitution was already illegal, yes? If it was legalized, it would be more controlled and you wouldn't have that problem. But if I'm wrong, then it sounds like the only solution is to make condoms illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cst.SB View Post
    Also, if you could find a woman that was healthy both mentally and physically, that was willing to have sex with you for money, then great.
    Okay, then we agree. Prostitution is a victimless crime.
    Last edited by TheOldRhino; 11-18-06 at 03:00 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by trooper_hopeful_51 View Post
    Thats the definition of democracy, majority rules.
    America is NOT a democracy. America is a republic. Democracy is, as you said, majority rules. If that was the case, how much longer would racial issues such as slavery and later ending segregation have continued? Sometimes a forced change on the people is necessary for the good of the people- whether they have the vision to see it or not. It was that way with slavery, and I believe it's the same with drug legalization.

    Quote Originally Posted by trooper_hopeful_51 View Post
    I just choose to believe that there are not enough significant drawbacks to caffine and MSG to warrant the same banishment as drugs....although I would point out there are regulations concerning those items, and even more strict regulations concerning alchohol and cigs, that the government imposes to again, protect people from themselves.
    So explain to me again (because I must have missed it) why the government can't put those same regulations on the production of marijuana or cocaine and allow it to be sold on the open market- just like cigarettes and alcohol?

    Quote Originally Posted by trooper_hopeful_51 View Post
    I find it difficult to compare a church bingo game to support missions in the Congo to a bunch of punks shooting dice to feed their...ahem..drug habit. Apples and oranges in my opinion.
    In your opinion. However, I would argue- as a non-Christian- that gambling to support people who are trying to convert natives who have done just fine without Christianity in their lives is more devious than hood rats rolling bones for some weed. At least the hood rights don't suffer from righteous indignation. But, that's really not constructive for this argument.
    The virtue of spirit has no need for thanks or approval. Only the certain conviction that what has been done is right. -Jor El, as played by Marlon Brando

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    Rhino you crack me up..

    And you quoted my post as OFK

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    And you didn't read my link either.. because the US government gov pays over% of the over all health care cost in the US.

    Here is another link for you to read http://cthealth.server101.com/the_ca...ted_states.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cst.SB View Post
    And you quoted my post as OFK
    Maybe it's because he's got visions of marijuana and whores running thru his head.

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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhino View Post
    However, I would argue- as a non-Christian-...
    Their it is. Their's his problem right there. HE NEEDS JESUS!!!

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    Rhino,

    OK, you made me post again....hope that ok even though I said I was done, but like you I really enjoy a healthy debate. You are absolutely correct about America being a republic, that was my mistype. But my point still stands. Take minimum wage, I don't think it should be raised. I have all kinds of economical rational for that opinion, but in my state, it went to a vote, and it passed. So regardless of how I feel, its done. In this case, same with legalizing marijuane. Put to a vote of the people this past election, went down in flames. The reason the government chooses not to legalize drugs, I would guees its because there is nothing good they have to offer. Here is where you insert the alchohol and cig arguement, and my reply to that is you are right, as far as I am concerned, they have no benifit to this country or its citizens, so ban them too. Toungue firmly in cheek here, but I see no reason to add more things detrimental to society simply because there are other bad things already allowed. Why hasten the decline of our culture? Again, these are just my opinions...but hey, they work in MY head...lol

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    Doc_Holliday's Avatar
    Doc_Holliday is offline California Dreaming...
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    You praise His name Term, Praise his NAME!!!! LOL

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    TheOldRhino is offline Corporal
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terminator View Post
    Their it is. Their's his problem right there. HE NEEDS JESUS!!!

    The virtue of spirit has no need for thanks or approval. Only the certain conviction that what has been done is right. -Jor El, as played by Marlon Brando

 

 
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