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View Poll Results: Are prostitution and drug use victimless crimes?

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  • Yes

    9 10.84%
  • No

    70 84.34%
  • Only drug use is a victimless crime

    1 1.20%
  • Only prostitution is a victimless crime

    3 3.61%
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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virginian View Post
    Ewwww, just because the guy believes prostitution should be legal doesn't mean he'll do THAT
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  2. #122
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    Yeah, I don't need Freedomfighter's help. He's a douche.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    No I dont think alcohol should be illegal.
    Okay. Speaking of double standard...

    You argue that drugs should remain illegal because if someone does them, they go out and get hurt.

    Well, the same is true with alcohol. How many DV's have you been on where the primary aggressor was drunk? How many fights or DCs have you been on where the people involved where drunk?

    Yet you think alcohol should remain legal and drugs should remain illegal. I too am trying to figure out a double standard- yours.
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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhino View Post
    Yet you think alcohol should remain legal and drugs should remain illegal.
    I've heard this arguement 1000 times, and here's my response:

    Many people (if not most) who drink do so without the intention of getting drunk. I normally drink a couple times a week, but usually no more than one or two beers at a time. I rarely feel the effects of the alcohol.

    I've never heard of anyone smoking pot for the flavor. Potheads smoke simply to get high. Many of them end up realizing how stupid it is and quit. Others decide that the high from pot just isn't enough, and move on to harder drugs. It's a fairly small number of people that smoke pot routinely, but don't try harder drugs.
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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope View Post
    Many people (if not most) who drink do so without the intention of getting drunk. I normally drink a couple times a week, but usually no more than one or two beers at a time. I rarely feel the effects of the alcohol.
    Umm... no offense, but... you don't get out much, do you?
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  5. #125
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    No, not nearly enough.

    But seriously, most of the drinkers I know drink in moderation, and drink specific beverages they like the taste of. Widmer Hefeweizen is my favorite. My parents drink my dad's homemade wine. My boss likes Black Butte Porter.

    Of course, I also know people who drink way too much, and are poster-children for reinstating prohibition.
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  6. #126
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    I drink maybe twice a year- sometimes three. And each time it is for the sole purpose of getting fugged up. And although I know a few guys who have a couple beers to wind down after work, most people I know are the same way. We drink to get drunk.
    The virtue of spirit has no need for thanks or approval. Only the certain conviction that what has been done is right. -Jor El, as played by Marlon Brando

  7. #127
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    isn't all sex techically prostotution? i mean you do have to pay for dinner and movies and jewelry, and we all know the only reason you are paying for that stuff is cause you'll get a little something for it. Especially if you are married.
    In memory of Carlos Borland.

    Trooper Borland was shot and killed when he stopped a car on I-80, just outside of Lovelock, Nevada, whose driver was wanted for not paying for gasoline. Unbeknownst to Trooper Borland, the suspect had just murdered two people in Texas and the vehicle was stolen. Before stopping the vehicle Trooper Borland had requested a check on the plates, but the plates had not yet been entered into NCIC. As he approached the vehicle the man pulled out a .38 caliber handgun and shot him in the head.

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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1NVtrooper View Post
    isn't all sex techically prostotution? i mean you do have to pay for dinner and movies and jewelry, and we all know the only reason you are paying for that stuff is cause you'll get a little something for it. Especially if you are married.
    Exactly. I'm curious- what makes prostitution so immoral? Here's a hypothetical: Let's say I'm married and my wife doesn't want to have sex tonight. (I know it's a stretch, but bear with me.) I then offer her a new widget (book, jewelry, clothing, whatever) if she will relent. She then agrees to have sex in exchange for the widget.

    By Georgia law, she has committed the crime of prostitution.

    Who is the victim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Georgia law
    16-6-9.
    A person commits the offense of prostitution when he or she performs or offers or consents to perform a sexual act, including but not limited to sexual intercourse or sodomy, for money or other items of value.
    The virtue of spirit has no need for thanks or approval. Only the certain conviction that what has been done is right. -Jor El, as played by Marlon Brando

  9. #129
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    With alcohol you can detect and prove intoxication much easier than with marijuana, which allows for public intoxication and DUI laws to be enforced. I can't imagine (but have no experience of course) that proving a DUI of marijuana is as easy as DUI of alcohol. But then you guys can tell me if that's true.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virginian View Post
    With alcohol you can detect and prove intoxication much easier than with marijuana, which allows for public intoxication and DUI laws to be enforced. I can't imagine (but have no experience of course) that proving a DUI of marijuana is as easy as DUI of alcohol. But then you guys can tell me if that's true.
    I think it is. The only difference with DUI drugs is you don't get your test results immediately. Besides, if we only arrested people for DUI alcohol and not DUI drugs, then we're only doing half the job. Because the drugs are certainly out there.

    I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but when I am Emperor of the World and I legalize drugs, I will make DUI under any substance a felony. Because there will be plenty of room in the prisons.
    The virtue of spirit has no need for thanks or approval. Only the certain conviction that what has been done is right. -Jor El, as played by Marlon Brando

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhino View Post
    I think it is. The only difference with DUI drugs is you don't get your test results immediately. Besides, if we only arrested people for DUI alcohol and not DUI drugs, then we're only doing half the job. Because the drugs are certainly out there.

    I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but when I am Emperor of the World and I legalize drugs, I will make DUI under any substance a felony. Because there will be plenty of room in the prisons.
    I guess that's my problem with it - if you can't prove the guy is intoxicated from smoking marijuana, should you just let him go on? You wouldn't just have to prove that he has been smoking it or has it on him if it's legal, you'd have to set a limit for the legal amount of the "high" he can be experiencing while driving, then have a good way of testing for this limit that's fast enough for roadside results. With current technology, I just don't see it being reasonable.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virginian View Post
    I guess that's my problem with it - if you can't prove the guy is intoxicated from smoking marijuana, should you just let him go on? You wouldn't just have to prove that he has been smoking it or has it on him if it's legal, you'd have to set a limit for the legal amount of the "high" he can be experiencing while driving, then have a good way of testing for this limit that's fast enough for roadside results. With current technology, I just don't see it being reasonable.

    Although I do not agree with the legalization of drugs, I would counter you with this.

    Current case law dictates that officers have probable cause to arrest a DUI, obviously. This PC does not require a roadside chemical test. Instead, we have standardized manuevers with which to gauge the level of intoxication due to alcohol. Based on our training in these standardized manuevers, we are able to arrest and THEN administer a chem test.

    These standard tests, to a large extent, already exist for drugs. They just require more extensive training, in ordered to be considered a DRE, Drug Recognition Expert. If you've never seen a DRE do an evaluation, they're mostly just roadsides and a few other manuevers that can easily be done roadside, involving directed counting/recitation, Rhomberg, etc. Hell you could even abbreviate them to test for "impairment to the slightest degree" (the level of statutory impairment in most states), then do the full on kit at your station. Once at the station, a blood test would be required, just like if a drunk chooses blood now.

    In addition, why even have a "legal limit" for drugs? If drugs were legal, you may as well go full on and say that driving with ANY significant amount of drugs in your bloodstream is illegal. Just because there's a spectrum of leeway for alcohol doesn't necessarily mean there needs to be one with drugs.
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  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virginian
    I guess that's my problem with it - if you can't prove the guy is intoxicated from smoking marijuana, should you just let him go on?
    Legally speaking, you don't have a choice. You can't legally order someone not to drive if they have a valid license, and are not legally impaired. However, if you feel appropriate, you can strongly suggest it, or use verbal judo to convince them not to drive.


    Quote Originally Posted by Virginian
    You wouldn't just have to prove that he has been smoking it or has it on him if it's legal, you'd have to set a limit for the legal amount of the "high" he can be experiencing while driving, then have a good way of testing for this limit that's fast enough for roadside results. With current technology, I just don't see it being reasonable.
    What you have to prove is impairment. Just because the suspect was driving with a narcotic in his system does not technically mean he was impaired by it. Obviously, you cannot use a preliminary breath testing device, or Intoxylizer to determine this. You have to rely on your observations of the suspect driving, the possible smell of the narcotic, the observations of the suspect, anything you see in plain view (like paraphernalia), certified DRE's (if available, and FIELD SOBRIETY TESTING. Part of the reason alcohol DUI/DWI/OUI (etc...) is easy is because you do it more often, their is no waiting process, and you can rely on a PBT/alco-sensor and Intoxilizer. Officers cannot rely on that with a drug DUI/DWI/OUI. It is much less cut and dry. You have to justify, and explain, as opposed to just saying he/she blew a .08. Officers with little to no training in this area are uncomfortable doing it, or don't really know how.
    Last edited by Terminator; 11-22-06 at 03:37 PM.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terminator View Post
    However, if you feel appropriate, you can strongly suggest it, or use verbal judo to convince them not to drive.
    I have heard of this "Verbal Judo" before, but have never experienced a demo... How about posting a sound clip and I'll tell you whether it scared me or not

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  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virginian View Post
    I guess that's my problem with it - if you can't prove the guy is intoxicated from smoking marijuana, should you just let him go on? You wouldn't just have to prove that he has been smoking it or has it on him if it's legal, you'd have to set a limit for the legal amount of the "high" he can be experiencing while driving, then have a good way of testing for this limit that's fast enough for roadside results. With current technology, I just don't see it being reasonable.
    There are standardized test that show impairment of drugs. Drug Recognition experts or D.R.E's can utilize these test to discover impairment from drugs other than alcohol. The D.R.E's are also provided with specimen cups and can have you piss in a cup and immedietly discover wether or not you have drugs, from narcotic anelgesics to opiates, in your system. So yes there is a standard and effectife way to do these test roadside. The officer usually does enough to get P.C. for the arrest and then transports to a better location and finishes the examination.
    In memory of Carlos Borland.

    Trooper Borland was shot and killed when he stopped a car on I-80, just outside of Lovelock, Nevada, whose driver was wanted for not paying for gasoline. Unbeknownst to Trooper Borland, the suspect had just murdered two people in Texas and the vehicle was stolen. Before stopping the vehicle Trooper Borland had requested a check on the plates, but the plates had not yet been entered into NCIC. As he approached the vehicle the man pulled out a .38 caliber handgun and shot him in the head.

    The suspect was apprehended later that day. He was convicted of Trooper Borland's murder and sentenced to death.

    Trooper Borland had served with the agency for 1 year.

    BE SAFE COURTEOUS AND PROFESSIONAL WITH ALL YOUR CONTACTS, AND ALWAYS HAVE A BACK-UP PLAN ON HOW TO KILL THEM.

    GOD CREATED COPS SO THAT FIREMEN COULD HAVE HEROS TOO!!!

  16. #136
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    Rhino,

    The reason I dont have a problem with alcohol compared to drugs is the same ones Ive been posting. But I will say them again, and its not a double standard. But why wont you answer my questions?? Stop turning this around on me everytime and answer the questions posted to you. If you cant come up with a valid answer or argument just say so, dont tap dance around them please. You aske us to answer your questions, how about answering ours.


    #1) Drunks dont go out and rob, murder, or comit other felonies to get money to buy alcohol. Drug users do, (not all but a large majority)

    #2) Someone doesnt become hooked on alcohol from the very first time they use it. It happens over a length of time and abuse. In fact a person can drink alcohol for years and not become addicted to it, unlike most drugs.

    So alcohol isnt nearly as dangerous of a "drug" as illegal drugs are. As much as I dont agree with everything the Government does, and wish they stayed out of my life more, they do need to do some things to protect the population from itself. This may not be everyone in society, but it is required because a large population couldnt handle it if drugs were legal. And that would place a larger burden on society in general in the long run.
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  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    But I will say them again, and its not a double standard. But why wont you answer my questions??
    I'm answering every question you ask me. I can't help it if you're not reading my posts. Which questions are you talking about specifically?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    #1) Drunks dont go out and rob, murder, or comit other felonies to get money to buy alcohol.
    I guess you haven't worked that many domestics, then?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    #2) Someone doesnt become hooked on alcohol from the very first time they use it.
    Most people do not become hooked on cocaine, ecstacy, or marijuana the first time they use them, either.

    The illegal drug trade is a $450 billion a year industry. That's on par with the oil trade.

    Do you really want criminals to be the ones regulating it?
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  18. #138
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    Yes I have worked Domestics, and yes the majority is from Alcohol, I will give you that. But its also a misdemeanor unless serious bodily injury is involved, and thats not very often. I'm talking the majority of FELONIES can be traced to drugs. If the majority of people who were drunk committed felonies, or committed felonies so they could get alcohol and get drunk, then I would say its time to look at making it illegal. But thats not the case, least not in the numbers of drugs.

    Also the questions Im talking about was my scenario of DUI. Whose the victim? Why shouldn't it be legal if I make it home ok?

    Also I dont think we will ever win the war on Terorism, should we give up on that?
    What about the war on drunk driving, should we make that legal cause we cant win it?
    What about illegal immigration, we will never stop that, should that then be legal?
    Tax evasion....I can go on and on, but it still doesnt mean they should be legal because we wont ever win them.

    Dangerous drugs are a health risk to the people that take them, and to society in general, (crimes committed to feed the habit etc). Making it legal and regulating it wont stop that, you might get a reduction in one area, say crime, but I think health care would go up dramatically. So you might save here, but pay more there.

    Having said all that, I will also say again that Marijuana isnt as dangerous of a drug as the others. People dont commit felonies to feed the habit like the others. Health care costs for it is very low compared to the others, and generally its a misdemeanor to possess personel use amounts in most states. So I have no problem makeing that legal if the government can regulate it in a controlled manner. Say similar to alcohol and or tobbacco.
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  19. #139
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    So, to answer your question, "Who is the victim?" That would be me.
    If you as a LEO decide to do drugs, believe me, someone will find out. Then, you being a drug user and a police officer will bring the whole profession of Law Enforcement Officers down a notch. Everyone will believe that "all" cops are bad and do drugs just because you decided to. I, as a LEO will suffer your decision and become a victim.

    Prostitution? Sure it has victims...again, me. Prostitutes go out into the world, legally or not, and do their thing. Some are clean and some are not. Eventually, all have to go see Doctors, Lawyers and Judges. This causes our taxes to go up, because I have never met a prostitute that was not indigent when he or she went to court. So, we pay to defend their decisions. Taxes go up, my pay goes to them....I become the victim of their decision.

  20. #140
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    OK guys...I don't necessarily aree with Rhino on his points, but even I'M getting fed up with people not getting what he's saying.
    "If anything worthwhile comes of this tragedy, it should be the realization by every citizen that often the only thing that stands between them and losing everything they hold dear... is the man wearing a badge." -- Ronald Reagan, in the wake of the deaths of 4 CHP troopers in the Newhall Incident, 1970

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