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View Poll Results: Are prostitution and drug use victimless crimes?

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  • Yes

    9 10.84%
  • No

    70 84.34%
  • Only drug use is a victimless crime

    1 1.20%
  • Only prostitution is a victimless crime

    3 3.61%
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  1. #141
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    I answered your questions. Kindly answer mine:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhino View Post
    The illegal drug trade is a $450 billion a year industry. That's on par with the oil trade.

    Do you really want criminals to be the ones regulating it?
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    I'm talking the majority of FELONIES can be traced to drugs.
    Talk about a machine that feeds itself. Which felonies are you talking about? Drug possession felonies? Property crimes or crimes against persons?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    Also the questions Im talking about was my scenario of DUI. Whose the victim?
    I answered this question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhino View Post
    The same victim as if I go twice the speed limit through a neighborhood without hitting anyone or anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    Why shouldn't it be legal if I make it home ok?
    Again, because it is a traffic law. I'm not advocating getting high and driving. Driving is NOT a right in any state. It's a priveledge. Most traffic crimes that are committed on a daily basis have no "victims" per se. So, once again, it really has nothing to do with the arguement.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    Also I dont think we will ever win the war on Terorism, should we give up on that?
    You're missing the bigger picture. Which again ties into my question above that you never answered.

    The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result each time. I'm sick of innocent people, non-violent offenders, and (most importantly) our fellow officers getting killed every year in the name of this so-called "War on Drugs".

    So, rather than just taking things as they are "because that's the way it is", I think it's time we consider alternate solutions. So, again, I ask, what sense does it make to put criminals in charge of an industry that is on par with the oil trade?

    As for the argument about more addicts being created by drug legalization: I offer you two arguements.

    First, I give you The Swiss Heroin Experiment.

    Next, I give you this: Nicotine is the most addictive drug out there, and I challenge you to find evidence to the contrary. Yet in the US, over the past 10 years, more than 50% of our population have quit smoking. Why? Education. Availability of treatment programs. Alternatives.

    So why couldn't we use the money revenued from drug taxation and sale towards the same programs?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    Dangerous drugs are a health risk to the people that take them, and to society in general, (crimes committed to feed the habit etc).
    Only because they are illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    Making it legal and regulating it wont stop that, you might get a reduction in one area, say crime, but I think health care would go up dramatically. So you might save here, but pay more there.
    Again, we are already paying. You have yet to show me a person that hasn't done crack or meth or heroin simply because it's illegal- and I suspect you never will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndon Chief View Post
    So, to answer your question, "Who is the victim?" That would be me.
    If you as a LEO decide to do drugs, believe me, someone will find out.
    Let's take me being an LEO out of the equation. I'm talking about me as a private, individual person. And what, exactly, are you a victim of?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndon Chief View Post
    Prostitution? Sure it has victims...again, me. Prostitutes go out into the world, legally or not, and do their thing. Some are clean and some are not. Eventually, all have to go see Doctors, Lawyers and Judges. This causes our taxes to go up, because I have never met a prostitute that was not indigent when he or she went to court. So, we pay to defend their decisions. Taxes go up, my pay goes to them....I become the victim of their decision.
    You are a victim of all of these things- BECAUSE PROSTITUTION IS ALREADY ILLEGAL. You just gave a compelling arguement for legalizing it. Thank you.
    The virtue of spirit has no need for thanks or approval. Only the certain conviction that what has been done is right. -Jor El, as played by Marlon Brando

  2. #142
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    Im sorry Rhino, I just dont agree with you on this. And I dont see anyway of changing your mind, or you changing mine. So instead of continuing to dance in circles I shall stop dancing.

    But I have enjoyed the debate alot. Thank you
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  3. #143
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    Just what the America needs are more hookers & people on drugs. Some people need to get a clue.

  4. #144
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  5. #145
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    The WHO’s clear criticism of the Swiss Heroin experiment:

    The report evaluating (13) the experiment with heroin in Switzerland, submitted by 23 experts commissioned by the WHO, contains highly critical comments.

    1. For the experts, the Swiss study does not demonstrate that heroin is more effective than methadone (p. 11). These refer to the report of the 1998 WHO 30th expert Committee, which states that the most effective treatment of opiate dependency consists of prolonged action oral opiate agonists such as methadone. Then there is the risk that the prescription of heroin will compromise the results of methadone therapy which is closely controlled (p. 9–10).

    2. The experts point out the inadequacies of the study in terms of methodology, such as the fact that it cannot be determined whether improvements in state of health and social functions are due to the prescription of heroin or are the effect of the overall program (p. 11). The absence of standardised protocols has also been criticised (p. 5).

    3. The report raises criticisms due to the fact that information concerning the improvement of living and working conditions and social contacts, and also the abandonment of criminal behaviour and reduction in the parallel consumption of heroin is based only on the statements of the drug addicts. No independent external analysts or any form of control were used (p. 1). Moreover, the resistance rate, considered a great success, is no higher than reported in initial reports on methadone-based substitute treatment (p. 8).

    4. The report states on page 12 that the study does not allow any assessment of the cost-benefit ratio or the indication for heroin prescription.


    5. The report questions whether the results of the study can be of use to other countries (p. 11) and requires scientifically rigorous assessments of replacement treatments and randomised controlled clinical studies in order to evaluate accompanying therapeutic measures.

    6. One parameter clearly worsened during the experiment. Overall mortality amongst those taking part in the study (around 3%) is markedly higher than the European average (around 2%). In Great Britain (14) it has been demonstrated that pragmatic treatment of drug dependency has reduced mortality from 1.9% (1967–1976) to around 1% (1984–1993) (p. 7).

    http://www.aids-info.ch/e_te/aas-e-fa2.htm

    Sorry, I can't find any clear indication that it worked. I've looked at a few now that claim it was poorly studied at best, that it maintained longer addictions, and those that left the program ended up worse off, and had a higher mortality rate.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cst.SB View Post
    The WHO’s clear criticism of the Swiss Heroin experiment:
    First off, Pete Townsend nor Roger Daltry have the education or back ground to being doing addiction medicine experiments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cst.SB View Post
    Sorry, I can't find any clear indication that it worked. I've looked at a few now that claim it was poorly studied at best, that it maintained longer addictions, and those that left the program ended up worse off, and had a higher mortality rate.
    I guess we can sit here and throw URLs at each other skewing the arguement either way. I simply wanted to open everyone's mind to the possibility.

    But again I cite the nicotine comparison. IF more than 50% of smokers in the US can quit in the span of a decade, then anything's possible.
    The virtue of spirit has no need for thanks or approval. Only the certain conviction that what has been done is right. -Jor El, as played by Marlon Brando

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanSwitek View Post
    Just what the America needs are more hookers & people on drugs. Some people need to get a clue.
    And there you have it, folks. I figured it was just a matter of time before an O.commer piped up. Stan has no rational arguement, so he must result to the only rebuttal he can understand: the petty insult.

    I think that signifies that this thread is done. If someone else wants to debate it, they can go ahead. I'm done here.

    To the people capable of rational thought: thanks for the debate. You certainly challenged many of beliefs and I will give thought to what everyone said. I only hope I had similar effect.
    The virtue of spirit has no need for thanks or approval. Only the certain conviction that what has been done is right. -Jor El, as played by Marlon Brando

  8. #148
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    Try telling a mother, whose son was just murdered and robbed by a drug user to support a habbit, that she is not a victim.
    If you run from me...you'll just go to jail tired!

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhino View Post
    I guess we can sit here and throw URLs at each other skewing the arguement either way. I simply wanted to open everyone's mind to the possibility.

    But again I cite the nicotine comparison. IF more than 50% of smokers in the US can quit in the span of a decade, then anything's possible.
    I appreciate your arguement and my mind is completely open. I just happen to be against legal/decriminalized drug use. Though, I am open to hear any "reasonable" arguement to the contrary.

    I also believe that "we" should be looking at the route causes, and dealing with those as well. We can't just look at enforcement, nor can we just look at decriminalization. What we need to do is look at the social factors, poverty, family break down, poor choices, social programs, social services - government and NGOs (like that one Jenna) to solve a problem far bigger than just enforcement/non-enforcement.

    I just see enforcement in the picture right now, because no one is willing to take on the bigger problems.

  10. #150
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    I agree Rhino, thanks for the debate. Its been a pleasure, and I hope to do it again...although, I must admit, with the strength of your convictions and intelligemy arguments, I hope you are on my side next time...LOL

  11. #151
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    Thanks again Rhino, and yes you have given me alot of food for thought. I look forward to the next debate.
    "An Unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." Jeff Cooper


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  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhino View Post
    And there you have it, folks. I figured it was just a matter of time before an O.commer piped up. Stan has no rational arguement, so he must result to the only rebuttal he can understand: the petty insult.

    I think that signifies that this thread is done. If someone else wants to debate it, they can go ahead. I'm done here.

    To the people capable of rational thought: thanks for the debate. You certainly challenged many of beliefs and I will give thought to what everyone said. I only hope I had similar effect.
    Several point of order. I have been here at Lawenforcementforms since the start.

    Prostitution? I ran my departments vice unit. From what I saw it's anything but victimless.

    Drug use is hardly victimless. I lost a family member to meth. Victimless? The rest of my family would disagree.

  13. #153
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    Rhino For some odd reason i do believe you are in the wrong profession. If you dont like the laws so much you dont become a cop to change them, you run for office.


  14. #154
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    The drug thing has been well discussed. I really have nothing to add & my position is known.

    As for prostitution, if some poor slob wants to go to some sleazy place in the middle of the desert & pay for sex, that is his business. It's not inexpensive by any means.

    Now, do we want prostitution on our streets? I think most of us agree that hookers doing car dates in front of out homes & tossing the condoms on our lawns is bad. The ones that work the street are so nasty I think it's doubtful you could put them in an organized house some place. They couldn’t make enough to satisfy the house. Its doubtful the house wants to attract those kinds of clients.

    We all know about pimps & how they victimize their women. We also investigated several homicides where pimps killed the hookers’ clients. We also had a ring of women posing as hookers. They went around with their pimps robbing their clients thinking that the client would not report it to the police. Toward the end of their spree they liked a man.

    What I was seeing when I worked vice we lots of houses of prostitution popping up in residential areas & large apartment complexes. Who wants to live next to that? Organized crime was involved in many of these ops bringing women here from Korea, Taiwan & China. Most were no more than sex slaves. They were not free to leave. I worked one case when the head guy was holding the girls at gunpoint in the house. It turns out; he was wanted for murder in Hong Kong.

    Many of the so-called "high class" hookers you might find on the Internet were anything but. Many were on drugs. They might advertise a low price but they engage in something we called "up selling." That $200 price just gets you in the door. If you want anything beyond that, you pay for it. I worked numerous cases where we made dates with them. The prostitutes would send their kid(s) out in the night with a friend while they saw us in their apartment. Can you imagine doing that to your kids?

    I can cite many more reasons, all bad not, to legalize prostitution. We see how mismanaged government is at many levels. Do we really want government managing drug & prostitution programs? I think it only invites a huge potential for corruption.

  15. #155
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    I'm new here, but this has been an interesting thread, and while I have always been on the pro-legalization side, I've seen compelling points from both sides of this debate. I just had a few comments to stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    Again go back to your scenario, as I said in a previous post your scenario is picture perfect. So in the perfect scenario there is NO victim there, I agree. But lets use it in my scenario too, if I'm drunk lets say a.10 and I drive home from a party and dont swerve or hit anyone and don't violate any other motor vehicle laws, is there a victim? Should it be illegal still? Now dont say thats its a traffic law, and someone has the chance of being killed by my actions, thats the same arguments people are giving you in your scenario and you dont accept them. So should it be illegal, and who is the victim?
    My personal belief on the difference between these two particular scenarios is that someone who drinks alcohol (or ingests any other mind altering substance) and gets into a vehicle and drives is placing everyone in the city at undue risk whether he makes it home or not. I believe society is a clear victim here.

    On the other hand, if a person gets high smoking pot in his house that came from a plant he grew in his house and he never leaves his house high or takes his pot out of his house, and never exposes anyone else to it, I cannot see a clear victim or a way in which he or she is placing society at risk. The only victim I can see here is the person getting high -- and this would clearly be a subjective definition of victim. If someone goes to work every day, does his job, and pays his taxes -- if after all of that, they go home and smoke that joint to mellow out and he doesn't have a problem with this -- is he really a victim of drug use?

    --
    As to the matter of legalization or decriminalization, I would offer that a possible compromise would be to make recreational drug use a privilege like a concealed carry permit. As to whether this should be done for all drugs I think would be a matter still up for debate as every drug is different. Marijuana is certainly different from crack in many respects. Whether regulation takes the form of a permit with consent to testing or some other form of regulation altogether, it would provide a barrier to entry and force responsible use.

    Quote Originally Posted by StanSwitek View Post
    We all know about pimps & how they victimize their women. We also investigated several homicides where pimps killed the hookers’ clients. We also had a ring of women posing as hookers. They went around with their pimps robbing their clients thinking that the client would not report it to the police.Toward the end of their spree they liked a man.
    (emphasis mine)

    The argument for legalization contends that if prostitution were legal, the client and prostitute and manager (pimp) would be in an environment subject to the protections and responsibilities of the law and society. The quality and reputation of an escort service would be a known factor and clients would know where it was safe to purchase sex. Prostitutes would know which escort services would be safe. Escort services would be able to screen their employees and clients openly and within the law, and escort businesses would be subject to OSHA regulations and inspections, safe workplace laws, etc. People with STDs would not be able to work, and managers would not be able to beat up prostitutes because the law would make sure this does not happen. Legalization and regulation takes control of prostitution out of the hands of criminals and places it under the control of a civilized society.

    Quote Originally Posted by StanSwitek View Post
    What I was seeing when I worked vice we lots of houses of prostitution popping up in residential areas & large apartment complexes. Who wants to live next to that? Organized crime was involved in many of these ops bringing women here from Korea, Taiwan & China. Most were no more than sex slaves. They were not free to leave. I worked one case when the head guy was holding the girls at gunpoint in the house. It turns out; he was wanted for murder in Hong Kong.
    As far as organized crime goes and the industry in human/sex slave trafficking, these types of crimes are violent and have more victims than one can count. I would not suggest that these types of crimes would disappear if prostitution were legal. I would suggest, though, that the consensual exchange of money for sex between two consenting adults is an entirely different situation from a violent pervert paying top dollar for a 9 year old girl who was kidnapped from the Far East, South America, or Kansas. Those that are for the legalization of prostitution do not believe that these violent crimes should be ignored.

    As far as whether I want an escort service next door, I think we have adequate zoning laws and a sufficient public participation process to keep escort services away from residential neighborhoods and schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by StanSwitek View Post
    Many of the so-called "high class" hookers you might find on the Internet were anything but. Many were on drugs. They might advertise a low price but they engage in something we called "up selling." That $200 price just gets you in the door. If you want anything beyond that, you pay for it.
    If bait and switch were a reason to ban entire business sectors, everything would have to be black market, particularly the software industry But that's a different argument. I think, though, that people are going to get screwed (no pun intended) by bad companies, regardless of whether the business the company is in is legal or not. People stop buying from bad companies and they go out of business sooner or later, or the company cleans up it's ways and people continue to buy from them.

    Quote Originally Posted by StanSwitek View Post
    I worked numerous cases where we made dates with them. The prostitutes would send their kid(s) out in the night with a friend while they saw us in their apartment. Can you imagine doing that to your kids?
    I don't personally have kids, but if I did, I cannot imagine doing that to my kids. If consensual adult prostitution were legal though, I would be very much in favor of requiring all escort services to only allow mothers to work during the day on school days, no nights, and no weekends, and she cannot "work from home." Perhaps a licensing system here would be appropriate as well.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by BEK320 View Post
    Rhino For some odd reason i do believe you are in the wrong profession. If you dont like the laws so much you dont become a cop to change them, you run for office.
    I see. And there are no laws in your state or agency that you disagree with? In my state sodomy and premarital sex are also crimes. So does that mean I should agree with them before I start enforcing them?

    Just becase I don't agree with a law, doesn't mean I don't do my job. Everyone in this country that is big enough to have illegal drugs is old enough to know it's against the law. So, if they are dumb enough to get caught with it, I give them the ride.

    I think it's piss poor that I'm not only told this by a fellow officer in a public forum, but a moderator of this site, no less.

    I'm sorry if you find it odd I am able to seperate my personal opinions from doing my job. I also pity you if you can't do the same.
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  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhino View Post
    I see. And there are no laws in your state or agency that you disagree with? In my state sodomy and premarital sex are also crimes. So does that mean I should agree with them before I start enforcing them?
    I dont agree that there are still laws on the books but some like in mn there is a law on the books that says "Citizens may not enter Wisconsin with a chicken on their head." I am not gonna push to get that law repealed cause it is not enforced.. for some odd reason

    Just becase I don't agree with a law, doesn't mean I don't do my job. Everyone in this country that is big enough to have illegal drugs is old enough to know it's against the law. So, if they are dumb enough to get caught with it, I give them the ride.
    Good for you

    I think it's piss poor that I'm not only told this by a fellow officer in a public forum, but a moderator of this site, no less.
    You are making your thoughts and feelings known in a public forum and therefore if all LEO's sat in the verified section and not said a word in the public forum then the public may think that ALL cops think that drugs and prostitution should be legal

    I'm sorry if you find it odd I am able to seperate my personal opinions from doing my job. I also pity you if you can't do the same.
    Im sorry that you feel that only you are allowed to have an opinion in this site and you get so offended if someone dosent agree with you.


  18. #158
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhino
    11-25-06
    I think that signifies that this thread is done. If someone else wants to debate it, they can go ahead. I'm done here.

    To the people capable of rational thought: thanks for the debate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhino View Post
    11-26-06
    I see. And there are no laws in your state or agency that you disagree with? In my state sodomy and premarital sex are also crimes. So does that mean I should agree with them before I start enforcing them?

    Just becase I don't agree with a law, doesn't mean I don't do my job. Everyone in this country that is big enough to have illegal drugs is old enough to know it's against the law. So, if they are dumb enough to get caught with it, I give them the ride.
    .

    I thought flip-flopping was the Democrats speciality?
    Last edited by Terminator; 11-26-06 at 05:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terminator View Post
    I thought flip-flopping was the Democrats speciality?
    Well, if one of your moderators is going to call me out, I'm going to defend myself.

    I thought sandbagging was the democrat's speciality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhino View Post
    I thought sandbagging was the democrat's speciality.
    I don't know, I'm not too familiar with democrat's specialities. Though I do hear that Libertarians call themselves classical liberals, so maybe you can fill us in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia Dictionary
    Some writers who have been called libertarians have also been referred to as classical liberals, by others or themselves
    Last edited by Terminator; 11-26-06 at 08:23 PM.

 

 
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