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View Poll Results: Are prostitution and drug use victimless crimes?

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  • Yes

    9 10.84%
  • No

    70 84.34%
  • Only drug use is a victimless crime

    1 1.20%
  • Only prostitution is a victimless crime

    3 3.61%
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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by FKnight View Post
    The argument for legalization contends that if prostitution were legal, the client and prostitute and manager (pimp) would be in an environment subject to the protections and responsibilities of the law and society. The quality and reputation of an escort service would be a known factor and clients would know where it was safe to purchase sex.
    I can think of a dozen ways around this. Quality control of an independed escort is questionable at best. WE presently have laws against pimping & beating people up. Legalizing this activity will only make it worse.

    Prostitutes would know which escort services would be safe. Escort services would be able to screen their employees and clients openly and within the law, and escort businesses would be subject to OSHA regulations and inspections, safe workplace laws, etc.
    Great. What about the ones that dont meet the qualifications? They will just work at a cheaper rate. Thats exactly what happens in Nevada.


    People with STDs would not be able to work, and managers would not be able to beat up prostitutes because the law would make sure this does not happen.
    You really think so? Its illegal to beat up hoopers or prostitute with AIDS. Peopel still do it. Making it legal will not stop this.

    Legalization and regulation takes control of prostitution out of the hands of criminals and places it under the control of a civilized society.
    There will always be a black market & corruption.


    As far as whether I want an escort service next door, I think we have adequate zoning laws and a sufficient public participation process to keep escort services away from residential neighborhoods and schools.
    We do? Why is it happening then?

    If bait and switch were a reason to ban entire business sectors, everything would have to be black market, particularly the software industry But that's a different argument. I think, though, that people are going to get screwed (no pun intended) by bad companies, regardless of whether the business the company is in is legal or not.
    Bait & switch is one of MANY arguments against legalization. Consider the big picture.


    People stop buying from bad companies and they go out of business sooner or later, or the company cleans up it's ways and people continue to buy from them.
    The problem is when someone is bad in prostitution, they give you aids, rob you or kill you. A bit more than just buying a defective product.

    I don't personally have kids, but if I did, I cannot imagine doing that to my kids. If consensual adult prostitution were legal though, I would be very much in favor of requiring all escort services to only allow mothers to work during the day on school days, no nights, and no weekends, and she cannot "work from home." Perhaps a licensing system here would be appropriate as well.
    Dude, prostitutes lie. How many do you think would just say they dont have kids then leave them home unsupervised while they worked?

  2. #162
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    The argument for legalization contends that if prostitution were legal, the client and prostitute and manager (pimp) would be in an environment subject to the protections and responsibilities of the law and society. The quality and reputation of an escort service would be a known factor and clients would know where it was safe to purchase sex.


    I can think of a dozen ways around this. Quality control of an independed escort is questionable at best. WE presently have laws against pimping & beating people up. Legalizing this activity will only make it worse.

    I agree that there are at least a dozen ways around any regulations that would be in place for legalized prostitution. From my understanding, the licensing and certification system that many states and industries have in place for concealed carry permits, construction workers, A/C repair, electrician, doctor, lawyer, restaurant, etc. all appear to work at least pretty well that people aren't dying en masse as a result of these endeavors.

    When it comes to the violence in prostitution, it's possible I haven't been clear about the perspective I'm speaking from. It is my impression, and the impression amongst most I've seen who want prostitution legalized, that violence between pimps and prostitutes, prostitutes and clients, or clients and pimps, is due to mutually assured destruction, e.g. it is less likely that a prostitute is going to go to the police when her pimp beats her because she's already breaking the law being in that situation. This makes her feel trapped and the pimp is able to exploit this. It would seem also less likely that a client would go to the police after being robbed by a pimp or prostitute because he knows he will get fired from his job if he has a criminal record for buying a prostitute. In my view, this fear can only enable prostitutes and pimps to rob their clients because it is less likely they will be caught. If I am missing something to the equation, I invite further clarification.



    Prostitutes would know which escort services would be safe. Escort services would be able to screen their employees and clients openly and within the law, and escort businesses would be subject to OSHA regulations and inspections, safe workplace laws, etc.


    Great. What about the ones that dont meet the qualifications? They will just work at a cheaper rate. Thats exactly what happens in Nevada.


    People with STDs would not be able to work, and managers would not be able to beat up prostitutes because the law would make sure this does not happen.


    You really think so? Its illegal to beat up hoopers or prostitute with AIDS. Peopel still do it. Making it legal will not stop this.

    I would offer that if prostitution were legal, and there were brothels that failed to meet OSHA regulations and failed inspections, that they should be closed by the state or municipality, just as clinics and restaurants are closed. Also, when the manager of a legalized brothel beats his employee, I would expect they be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. If my assertion above is true, the employee wouldn't be afraid to report it and would be able to sue the prostitution company in civil court. I don't believe that making prostitution legal will stop violence from happening. I believe making prostitution legal and regulated creates a deterrent which can reduce it because, as stated above, a prostitute would not be afraid to call the police on her manager, and the client wouldn't be afraid to call the police if the prostitute robbed him. Again, if my base premise is false, convince me otherwise.



    There will always be a black market & corruption.

    I agree. There isn't a fix all. I believe in reducing the impact of the black market and corruption, and I believe the legalization and regulation of prostitution would do that, just as regulations for restaurants, hospitals, construction workers and other legal professions have reduced deaths, illnesses, child labor exploitation, and other horrible things over the last century. Right now, only bad people control the prostitution industry.



    As far as whether I want an escort service next door, I think we have adequate zoning laws and a sufficient public participation process to keep escort services away from residential neighborhoods and schools.


    We do? Why is it happening then?

    That is a good point to consider and I feel it's at the heart of most of the question of "victimless crimes." Let's take the example of a "responsible" escort service. This would be an escort service that treats its employees (prostitutes) well, forbids the use of drugs, requires regular testing for STDs, and carefully screens its employees and clients. An "irresponsible" escort service does none of this, pimps beat the prostitutes, everyone's using crack, and the clients are abusive punks. Out of the situation, I have two questions , but there is only one answer: a) Under the current system where prostitution is illegal, which escort service is likely to consider moving next to a school without considering the ramifications? b) Under the fictional system where prostitution is legal and is regulated, which escort service is likely to consider moving next to a school without considering the ramifications? In both cases, I would answer that it is the "irresponsible" escort service, and regardless of the legality of prostitution, they should be charged with a crime or fined. It's not beyond the realm of possibility or rationality to make prostitution legal and still keep it away from schools, churches, etc.

    Hell, if a state wants to legalize prostitution and one of the cities doesn't agree, more power to them, they can just not zone anything for "prostitution." All I'm saying is that I believe there are options that, while they won't stop the violence and exploitation that is suffered through prostitution, would significantly reduce it by creating an opportunity for responsible escort services to operate without the fear of prosecution for even existing.



    Bait & switch is one of MANY arguments against legalization. Consider the big picture.

    Agreed.



    People stop buying from bad companies and they go out of business sooner or later, or the company cleans up it's ways and people continue to buy from them.


    The problem is when someone is bad in prostitution, they give you aids, rob you or kill you. A bit more than just buying a defective product.

    Defective products have killed and continue to kill. That's why my government and why professional organizations and certification companies have taken action over the last century to reduce the occurrence of injuries and death from defective products or malpractice in services by passing laws, mandating standardized training and evaluation, and access to the court system to file lawsuits against companies who have caused the death of people by defective products or malpractice.

    The current legal status of prostitution not only places the control of the industry completely with the criminal element, but creates barriers preventing responsibly run escort services from utilizing the government (that a regulated escort service would pay taxes to) and the services of our society to create a safe environment.



    I don't personally have kids, but if I did, I cannot imagine doing that to my kids. If consensual adult prostitution were legal though, I would be very much in favor of requiring all escort services to only allow mothers to work during the day on school days, no nights, and no weekends, and she cannot "work from home." Perhaps a licensing system here would be appropriate as well.


    Dude, prostitutes lie. How many do you think would just say they dont have kids then leave them home unsupervised while they worked?

    I don't know, but in my view, the statement and question presupposes three things: a) Regardless of the legal status of prostitution, a woman consenting to take money from a consenting male in exchange for sex is inherently in and of itself bad and makes a woman irresponsible, and b) prostitution in and of itself causes mothers to be irresponsible and leave their kids home unsupervised when they work, and c) it is impossible for a responsible escort service to verify whether an employee has a child.

    As far as "b", there's no clear causal relationship between irresponsibility as a mother and being a prostitute (outside the scope of breaking the law, as we're discussing whether it should be against the law or not), unless you believe "a" is true. "c" is a no-brainer as background checks are easy to get, and were prostitution legal and regulated, the prostitute would most certainly specify her dependents on her W-4 when the escort service hires her. If the legal escort service offers family insurance coverage, you better believe she's telling them she's a mom.

    So, IMHO, it really only comes down to whether "a" is true or not -- that regardless of the legal status of prostitution, a woman consenting to take money from a consenting male in exchange for sex is inherently in and of itself bad and makes a woman irresponsible. That's what society needs to decide outside the scope of the ramifications caused by its legal status if we are to devote time and resources dealing with those ramifications.

  3. #163
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    For what it's worth, there has been excellent discussion in this thread however I don't think that these are victimless crimes. Hate to get up in my pulpit but if they were wrong in biblical times then they are still wrong.

  4. #164
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    I'll add that when I first went to vice, I too felt prostitution was victimless & pretty much harmless. I never payed much attention to prostitution or to street prostitutes. Over the years I ran our vice unit, I found out just how wrong my initial thoughts were. I quickly came to understand how prostitution relates to the "broken windows theory on urban decay."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixing_Broken_Windows


    FKnight, I'm curious, do you have any experience working prostitutuion enforcement or dealing with prostitutes? Your response is so full of holes I'n not going to address it other that to laugh about an escort service providing health insurance. Escort services are criminal enterprises, nothing less.
    Last edited by StanSwitek; 11-27-06 at 12:25 AM.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanSwitek View Post
    I'll add that when I first went to vice, I too felt
    FKnight, I'm curious, do you have any experience working prostitutuion enforcement or dealing with prostitutes? Your response is so full of holes I'n not going to address it other that to laugh about an escort service providing health insurance. Escort services are criminal enterprises, nothing less.
    No, I do not have any experience working prostitution enforcement or dealing with prostitutes, as I am not a law enforcement officer nor a client of any prostitution or escort services. This is why I tried to be clear in my most recent post as to what my viewpoint was as to why people who believe prostitution should be legal believe it would reduce violent crime. As I do not have the experience of a law enforcement officer, I was clear that I am open to suggestions as to why the premise behind my arguments might be flawed.

    I am more than open to you or anyone else more experienced with dealing with prostitution on a daily basis educating me as to why my premise may be flawed (or full of holes)

    If, however, you prefer to laugh at the possibility that there are responsible adults on earth who can trade money for sex in a safe manner, and run it like a legitimate business, and go on to imply that prostitution should continue to be illegal because it's currently illegal, then we can agree to disagree and leave it at that.

  6. #166
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    I have no problem with the way they do it in Nevada. Seems to work OK in those small number of places where it is legal. If you want to spend $1000+ for some tail, go for it. Other than that, I dont see a practical way to make it legal. That is based on my first hand experience.

  7. #167
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    It's a victimless crime since all members in the transaction consented. No matter what other secondary enterprises which are impingements on individual liberty that may result, outlawing consentual exchanges cannot occur. Remember, banks can be used for fronts in arms deals, kidnapping, political horn-swaggling[sp?], and other nerfarious acts, but we don't go out and outlaw banking. Nor do we outlaw housing just because some punks decide to setup a gang HQ in one. Nor do we outlaw knives because a few people decide it's rather 'neat' to carve up a person with one. And so forth. Secondaries under the law that are not intended by the function [or purpose] of the given item, service, exchange, and etc are not the perview of illegalization, regulation, nor outlawing. I find it sad that many law officers are tied up on consentual acts like this when larger, more pressing issues ensue [like the rising population of free roaming pedophiles, or the turnstile[sp?] action of parole boards with regard to murderers and so forth]. I believe the late Milton Friedman pointed out just by legalizing pot alone, the total revenue generated by a single tax would not only fund the US govt 6 billion dollars, but it would also, on average, drop the price of the drug in question to where its access wouldn't need one to engage in criminal enterprises to feed the addiction. Imagine doing that with every known drug today and having at least ten times that revenue, and the same rock sinking of the price [which is often the problem with drugs, in that their price remains high enough to fund cartels with other enterprises in mind].

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  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by RationalMuse View Post
    I believe the late Milton Friedman pointed out just by legalizing pot alone, the total revenue generated by a single tax would not only fund the US govt 6 billion dollars, but it would also, on average, drop the price of the drug in question to where its access wouldn't need one to engage in criminal enterprises to feed the addiction. Imagine doing that with every known drug today and having at least ten times that revenue, and the same rock sinking of the price [which is often the problem with drugs, in that their price remains high enough to fund cartels with other enterprises in mind]. -- RationalMuse

    What you fail to realize is that NO ONE is going to want to pay the higher priced, taxed narcotics. They will still obtain them illegally to avoid the tax. Great so smuggling becomes a larger Enterprise because you have more users...


    This is so hard to explain to someone who does not see the effects of narcotics or prostitution on a daily basis. If you saw the same HIV infected toothless crackhead hookers with 5 kids everyday you would not want to legalize it.

    If you saw the same homeless people begging you for some cash everyday (with track marks on their arms) because every dollar they get is used to feed their addiction, you would not want it legalized. If you talked to the family member of a person that was killed by the use of narcotics you would not want it legalized.

    If you want to see that toothless whore walking your neighborhood, or druggies shooting heroin in view of YOUR kids, you are fucked up in the head.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Man View Post
    What you fail to realize is that NO ONE is going to want to pay the higher priced, taxed narcotics. They will still obtain them illegally to avoid the tax. Great so smuggling becomes a larger Enterprise because you have more users...
    TN has a tax in effect of illegal narcotics, anyone can purchase the tax stamps, but few do so, even though no info is gathered from them. It just makes it an extra charge of narcotics tax evasion when they don't pay taxes on illegal narcotics. The local Tax revenue agents love their jobs.
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  10. #170
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    Memphis, the same is true in NC. They have a Marijuana tax stamp and a Cocaine tax stamp. Lets think about this people. The drug dealers are running an enterprise if you will. and they dont pay taxes, so when we bust them we charge them the tax, (or the State IRS does). Then they take there stuff and sell t at auction to pay the tax bill. Its a great system!! But France I bielve it is even goes one more step, and I think we should too.

    If Jr. is driving around in a $50,000 car, and has designer clothing and lots of "bling bling", but no job. Then they serve them with civil papers giving them the oprotunity to disclose their income. If they cant show how they are supporting the lifestyle they are then its seen as an illegal manner and the items are seized for sale.

    Now some here will argue that is wrong, but think about it for a minute. If you are living the life style of a Lawyer or Doctor but have no job and the Government requests why you havent filed a tax return and requests you to show how you are supporting yourself. You have ample time and opprotunity to show how you legally are supporting yourself. I think its time we bring this here, I know the state revenue agents would love this law.
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  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memphis View Post
    TN has a tax in effect of illegal narcotics, anyone can purchase the tax stamps, but few do so, even though no info is gathered from them. It just makes it an extra charge of narcotics tax evasion when they don't pay taxes on illegal narcotics. The local Tax revenue agents love their jobs.
    They were selling a few and everyone wondered who would be dumb enough to buy them; turned out it was stamp collectors.

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  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1sgkelly View Post
    They were selling a few and everyone wondered who would be dumb enough to buy them; turned out it was stamp collectors.



    This is true. I actually know a few stamp collectors who own them.
    I've also seen narcotics seized that actually had state tax stamps affixed to the baggies, I was rather surprised, to be honest.
    Last edited by Radar; 11-27-06 at 01:47 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Man View Post
    What you fail to realize is that NO ONE is going to want to pay the higher priced, taxed narcotics. They will still obtain them illegally to avoid the tax. Great so smuggling becomes a larger Enterprise because you have more users...
    Wrong, in fact drugs would drop in price due to legalization even with taxes. In fact in the Netherlands they tax drugs, but none of them ever go above market value. So, unless we do the traditional sin tax model, I doubt any of the drugs would expand in value.

    This is so hard to explain to someone who does not see the effects of narcotics or prostitution on a daily basis. If you saw the same HIV infected toothless crackhead hookers with 5 kids everyday you would not want to legalize it.
    The freedom to make mistakes is what freedom is also about. We all have to live with our choices even if they include others. But we cannot evade them by illegalizing them. In the case of your argument here where you talk about the children of such a drug addict, the consequence is laid upon the drug addict herself, not society and not the lawful citizen who partakes of a drug by their own free will and does not harm anyone else.


    If you saw the same homeless people begging you for some cash everyday (with track marks on their arms) because every dollar they get is used to feed their addiction, you would not want it legalized.
    I don't believe in caring about what happens to the beggar at all to be honest. If you make a big mistake that winds up with your own butt on the streets then too bad. That is what life is about. You live and learn, and most of the time you pay for it. There is 'novacaine' for our mistakes.

    If you talked to the family member of a person that was killed by the use of narcotics you would not want it legalized.
    I have. I know one person who has a brother that is a meth addict, but my opinion is still the same. You live with your choices or you don't live at all. That maybe harsh to you, but that is how the real world works.

    If you want to see that toothless whore walking your neighborhood, or druggies shooting heroin in view of YOUR kids, you are fucked up in the head.
    Is it any different than when a JW or a Scientologist or some other group and/or set of individuals I disapprove of trying to coerce me or my progeny? No, but do I have the right to interfere in their use of the public commons? No, for the simple fact that until they deprive me of Life, Liberty, and/or my Property, I have no moral right to interfere. This is the hallmark of a [Andrew] Jacksonian republic.

    -- RationalMuse

  14. #174
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    Here we go ladies a gentlemen, a fucking expert. I suppose he knows more then me. Why don't you tell me the meaning of life while you are at it?


    I'm staying in the Verified area you people piss me off. Welcome to my ignore list.

  15. #175
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    We need a "Verified non-retard" section

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    Must be nice to live in fantasy land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Man View Post
    Must be nice to live in fantasy land.
    That I'm not a retard? Damn

  18. #178
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    Not directed toward you lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Man View Post
    Here we go ladies a gentlemen, a fucking expert. I suppose he knows more then me. Why don't you tell me the meaning of life while you are at it?
    It's what you make of it. -- Socrates [sorta]

    I'm staying in the Verified area you people piss me off. Welcome to my ignore list.
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  20. #180
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    It amazes me how those that never arrested a doper or prostitute, never worked in the field of law enforcement & gained some expertise, never testified as an expert in court & only real world experience is taking a hit from a bong, seem to know so much.

 

 
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