Are prostitution and drug use victimless crimes?

**Terminator** · 11-11-06, 04:04 PM

This is a spinoff of the back and forth between Rhino and IronMan in the Immigration thread.

Vote in the poll, and explain your opinion; do you think prostitution and drug use are victimless crimes?

**Iron Man** · 11-11-06, 04:07 PM

Hell no

**Doc_Holliday** · 11-11-06, 04:17 PM

OK, prostitution in the legal sense such as the Bunny Ranch may be argued as victimless...but street walkers and massage parlors for sure have victims. One needs only to look at the woman beaten by pimps or johns, robbed, not to mention the walking cesspool of diseases...which brings us to drugs...both their prevelance in prostitution, as well as the crime that accompanies an addict. theft, fraud, the occasional violent outburst...not to mention just being royal pains in the ass

**Lazy Fed** · 11-11-06, 04:35 PM

NO!!!! Why cause I say so. (note: I am being a lazy fed as usual and don't feel like explaining myself

)

**OFK** · 11-11-06, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by fscf3801

NO!!!! Why cause I say so. (note: I am being a lazy fed as usual and don't feel like explaining myself

)

ROTF! Yeah me too! I am too tired, had to work out my lower body before going to work

**Iron Man** · 11-11-06, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by OFK

ROTF! Yeah me too! I am too tired, had to work out my lower body before going to work

going to commit a "victimless crime"?

**TheOldRhino** · 11-11-06, 05:33 PM

If I choose to sit in my home and shoot up heroine (I'm not one of these "only marijuana should be legalized" pussies- I say all drugs should be legalized) who is the victim?

Don't give me any crap about me doing drugs and then committing another, seperate crime. And don't give me any crap about drug dealers/runners/manufacturers being criminals- let's say the heroine I'm shooting up fell out of the sky. You have the scenario: Me. My living room. My boxer shorts. Golden Girls reruns on the TV. Me doing heroine. Who is the victim?

Regarding prostitution: If I pay a woman $1 to have sex with me- who is the victim. Again, don't go into other crimes or people made "victims" because prostitution is a crime. Let's say the woman in question has a glowing carreer and this is the only time she's traded sex for money. Again, who is the victim?

**TXCharlie** · 11-11-06, 05:34 PM

Neither are victimless. Both enterprises generally support other types of crimes, and both have severe emotional, financial, health, and public safety consequences.

but I support volunteer hookers who do it for free

**pmfc** · 11-11-06, 05:35 PM

Hell no!

The LEO's here have already explained why they are not victimless crimes. I have nothing else to add.

**Doc_Holliday** · 11-11-06, 06:05 PM

Rhino--just a couple of questions.....

First, the preimse that your heroin fell out of the sky is impossible, therefor it needs to be implied that you obtained the drug through illegal means, so it stands to reason everything that transpires after is a continuation of the criminal enterprise---

and 2, playing devils advocate, if I could use your logic for a moment, driving drunk should not be a crime. The simple act of driving drunk harms no one but the lush behind the wheel, it is the affects of the action that cause harm. Odds are, sitting in your room shooting up would harm no one, but you. But we dont live our lives in a vacume, and odds are, at some point, you would need to leave that room, and then you would be a problem for all..

**Just KC** · 11-11-06, 06:05 PM

I voted no. The company it attracts is never good, and for every prostitute and drug user, there is family members that suffer.

**General Patten** · 11-11-06, 07:13 PM

I suppose if someone grew/manufactured their own drugs and only used them in the privacy of their own home at the end of a long day, and didnt leave the house until they were sober, that would be victimless...

anything else could be linked, in some way, to a negative impact of some sort...

**OFK** · 11-11-06, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by Iron Man

going to commit a "victimless crime"?

ROFL yeah baby!

**OFK** · 11-11-06, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by General Patten

I suppose if someone grew/manufactured their own drugs and only used them in the privacy of their own home at the end of a long day, and didnt leave the house until they were sober, that would be victimless...

anything else could be linked, in some way, to a negative impact of some sort...

Yeah that's like saying that its not a crime to drive under the influence unless you kill someone or damage property.

**General Patten** · 11-11-06, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by OFK

Yeah that's like saying that its not a crime to drive under the influence unless you kill someone or damage property.

not really... DUI is taking the chance of injury/death which is dumb and wrong regardless of what actually happens

I couldnt see a whole lot happening with someone who is staying inside by himself until he's sober... unless he has a lot of unexpected visitors or something like that...

**TheOldRhino** · 11-11-06, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by TXCharlie

Neither are victimless. Both enterprises generally support other types of crimes, and both have severe emotional, financial, health, and public safety consequences.

So because something causes you to change your emotions, it should be illegal? Because something causes you to spend money, it should be illegal?

I guess that means wives should be illegal.

And public safety consequences? Again, that indicates you mean other crimes. Which has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

No one has answered my questions, and yet you vote "no".

Originally Posted by trooper_hopeful_51

First, the preimse that your heroin fell out of the sky is impossible, therefor it needs to be implied that you obtained the drug through illegal means, so it stands to reason everything that transpires after is a continuation of the criminal enterprise---

That's an old twist on the "which came first" arguement. "Just because it's a crime" isn't a valid answer. If it makes you feel better, let's say the drug of choice is legal, or I made it myself through legally-obtained materials. The point being there is no middle man. This is not a cop out, but it's to eliminate the weak "because it's a crime" arguement. You still haven't named a victim.

Originally Posted by trooper_hopeful_51

and 2, playing devils advocate, if I could use your logic for a moment, driving drunk should not be a crime. The simple act of driving drunk harms no one but the lush behind the wheel, it is the affects of the action that cause harm.

Good point. You may have a good arguement here. But, to counter that, alcohol isn't against the law. What's the difference, in this context, between alcohol and drugs? How come there is no victim when I sit in my living room and drink and there is when I do the same thing, but with an illegal substance? Although you have given me some food for thought, you still haven't answered my question: Who is the victim?

Originally Posted by trooper_hopeful_51

Odds are, sitting in your room shooting up would harm no one, but you. But we dont live our lives in a vacume, and odds are, at some point, you would need to leave that room, and then you would be a problem for all..

I agree, completely. And I wouldn't be opposed to harsher sentences on crimes that were commited while under the influence of any judgement-imparing substance. But again, we are talking about simply possessing a drug.

The question I have asked, again, is who is the victim? Tap dance all you want, but until I have an answer I'm going to stand firm.

And explain it to me like I'm a small child. Don't just say "soceity" is the victim. I want specific details for the scenario I named. Who, specifically in those situations, is a victim?

Originally Posted by Just KC

I voted no. The company it attracts is never good, and for every prostitute and drug user, there is family members that suffer.

The same could be said with alcohol. Should that be illegal, too?

**Willowdared** · 11-11-06, 07:43 PM

Well, I said no to both.

I think they both leave multi-generational scars.

My Great-Grandmother's sister was a dope-fiend - don't laugh, that's what they called it back then.

She started on morphine (hubby was a dentist) and soon graduated to opium. She would sneak out at all hours to get a fix, leaving her children unattended. Although she did clean-up eventually, she lost her husband and children.

As for prostitutes - you have to be in a very low place to sell your body. If you don't care about yourself, you don't take care of yourself, or anyone else that may depend on you.

**Doc_Holliday** · 11-11-06, 08:02 PM

Rhino
I would say you answered your own question: the difference between the alchohol example and the controlled substance example lies in the detail, one is currently illegal, one is not. A grey area for sure, but one that cannot be overlooked. If the states, or the federal government chhoses to make one or more of the illegals legal, then there is no distinction in my opinion between they and alchohol. I have always made the argument to others when it came to legalizing drugs, people always compare them to alchohol...well, 2 wrongs dont make a right. What BENEFIT would there be from legalizing drugs? Not just "they are no worse than-----"...but what are the BENEFITS.
As for the victim, using some of the logic from the immigration thread, we all are. The user, the dealer, the innocent on the corner, all of us. Yes, I know you asked for not the society thing, but in truth it is. I mean think of only the financial drains....prisons, treatment centers, health care, how about WELFARE??? How many crack heads are looking for hand outs from the state? I dont have statistics, but I am sure there are plenty of monetary drains, I mean come on, McDonalds can only employ so many of these mental midgets. LOL
Bottom line is as of the time of this post, both drugs and prostitution are illegal, and therefor they make victims of many. Until the status quo changes, thats my version of reality. I of course respect yours Rhino!

**TheOldRhino** · 11-11-06, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by trooper_hopeful_51

What BENEFIT would there be from legalizing drugs? Not just "they are no worse than-----"...but what are the BENEFITS.

I'm glad you axed.

The benefits to legalization of drugs would be many. Not the least of which is- drugs could potentionally be safer. Yeah, I said it.

If the drug trade was regulated like alcohol and tobacco then there would be health standards for it's manufacture, growth, and production. You wouldn't have meth labs blowing up all the time. You wouldn't have people packed into cocaine factories all day breathing in the stuff- there'd be OSHA standards to meet.

Also the government could set a required cap on the chemicals that give the drug it's appeal. Money made by the companies could also go into drug rehab and research safer variations drugs.

Another benefit is, of course more jobs. Think of all the people that were involved in the drug trade that are taking up space in prison- those beds would be emptied and those people could take their lives in a positive, legal direction.

Now, what are the benefits to keeping drugs illegal? I answered your question, now answer mine. And don't tell me it's keeping addicts from doing the drug- because I got a jail full of proof to the contrary.

Originally Posted by trooper_hopeful_51

As for the victim, using some of the logic from the immigration thread, we all are. The user, the dealer, the innocent on the corner, all of us. Yes, I know you asked for not the society thing, but in truth it is. I mean think of only the financial drains....prisons, treatment centers, health care, how about WELFARE???

First off, the only reason these people would even be considered victims is because drugs are criminal by definition. If you legalized drugs, the black market for drugs would virtually disappear. Prisons would empty out. The people that want to do drugs are already doing them. I'm not going to do crack if it were to be made legal- because I'm smart. Or smart enough.

Originally Posted by trooper_hopeful_51

How many crack heads are looking for hand outs from the state?

First off, even if what your saying is true- so what? How would the legalizing of drugs influence a welfare recipeiant who is already buying drugs illegaly?

Originally Posted by trooper_hopeful_51

Bottom line is as of the time of this post, both drugs and prostitution are illegal, and therefor they make victims of many. Until the status quo changes, thats my version of reality. I of course respect yours Rhino!

Of course! Just because they are crimes! If they were legalized, there'd be no crime in and of itself. Which only strengthens my arguement that they are victimless.

And note how no one has even began to tell me who the victim is if I wanted to pay a female to have sex with me. It's perfectly legal in Nevada. Can anyone tell me who the victim in the cathouse is?

**AITG** · 11-11-06, 09:10 PM

Interesting approach, Rhino. You're telling me that you are a law-abiding guy, home from a hard day at the factory and decided that tonight you'll have an after-dinner-fix instead of a Budweiser.
Do you think it ever happens that way?
In my part of the world, we have meth. Tweakers are willing to take any risk to make the stuff, expose their children to toxic labs, anything to get high. They lose their jobs, their teeth, their kids. They grow an interesting assortment of open sores. They bottle their urine to reprocess it for more meth. If they put forth half as much effort to do something legal, they'd probably be in charge of something somewhere. Instead, they know that they'll probably wind up dead but tweak on.
Legalize this shit? No thanks.