LEF is Live on the Radio as we Speak

[FTL_Ian]

I think the show was pure bullshit. If I wanted to hear that crap, I would go to their site. I sure as hell dont car to be lectured about that kind of crap here. I've heard it all before.

We can't please everyone, and don't bother trying.

[StanSwitek]

You guys are just spouting the same tired old bullshit. Ive heard it all before for the last 30 years.

[StanSwitek]

ON the show they cited the Netherlands as being a sucsess story on legalization. Here is the real story:

B. The Netherlands

Proponents of legalization almost certainly would cite Amsterdam as the drug Mecca of the Western world. Anyone may go into the restaurants in this city and order marijuana and hashish from a menu; further, heroin and cocaine have been decriminalized for all practical purposes. The police simply leave the users alone. Consequently, health officials estimate that Amsterdam has 7,000 addicts, 20% of whom are foreigners.58 These addicts are responsible for 80% of all property crime in the city, thus necessitating that Amsterdam maintain a police presence far greater than those of cities of comparable size in the United States.59

The Dutch have not raised one dollar in tax revenue from drug sales, and drug violators account for 50 percent of the Dutch prison population, a higher proportion than in the United States.60 The Netherlands is the most crime-prone nation in Europe and most drug addicts live on state welfare payments and by committing crimes.61 Nationwide, the number of reported crimes increased to 1.3 million in 1992 from. 812,000 in 1981.62 Faced with public disgust at home over soaring drug related crime and pressure from other European Community countries to strengthen drug laws, Dutch authorities are implementing an aggressive program to reduce drug-linked crimes and disturbances and show new teeth in combatting illegal drug sales.63 Eberhard van der Laan, leader Of the Social Democrats in the Amsterdam City Council says, "People are absolutely fed up with all the troubles caused by drug addicts - car windows broken, noise, whole streets almost given up to the drug problem."64 Legalization advocates claim that marijuana use in Netherlands has not increased since the laws were liberalized, but the number of Amsterdam drug cafes rose from 30 to over 300 in one decade. They also fail to note that daily marijuana use by U.S. youth has declined by 75 percent.65

[d_goddard]

You guys are just spouting the same tired old bullshit. Ive heard it all before for the last 30 years.

Funny, the libertarians feel the same way

Actually, I take that back.
30 years ago we did not face no-knock raids, warrantless wiretaps, most states did not fine you for driving without a seatbelt, and the smoking policy in a bar was up to the bar owner.

[StanSwitek]

Hello everyone I'd like to encourage some clean logical debate here.
I am an FTL subsciber and while I only started listening in hour 2 tonight I think I understand the crux of the debate.
While I respect the current establishment of law I'd like to point out that Libertarianism is not about legalizing things. It is about free market economics.

Milton Friedman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_Friedman
who was mentioned on the news last week extensively because he died at 96 was a Nobel Prize winning economist and two of his major efforts were on eliminating drug prohibition and public education.
There is plenty of information about free market economics and specifically how black markets work available on the internet as well as a number of excellent books by friedman and his wife.

Libertarianism is not about some Utopian ideals, that is what communism and socialism are about, which is what government in general is about. Government is supposedly a necessary EVIL for the common good of the Commune-ity.
The closest thing we have to an example of a major active Libertarian politician in the US is (R) Rep. Ron Paul of Texas.

The US Constitutional Republic is NOT supposed to be a democracy because democaracy aka "mob rule" allows others aka "society" to inffringe on individuals rights, which extend as far as an individual can imagine as long as imagined right does not infringe on the rights of any others because humans have free will to make any choice good or bad for themselves.

Rights as everyone should know are not given by the Constitution, but are "endowed by their creator". The founding fathers were simply pointing this bit of logic out and thought it would be good to document it.
As citizens it is our duty to be aware of things like the constitution as most of us know little I recommend a great refresher the Badnarik Constitution Classes for Real Patriots of the USA Republic.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?...titution+Class
Yes its about 7 hours, but its mostly grade school stuff and its every Citizens duty to know.

No one is suggesting a lack of security or allowing drugees to run amuck. Everyone should be able to have property and be able to defend their property. I personally do not think taking any drugs is ok and I never have. I don't even take pain killers and I believe in maximizing personal health, but I have seen what illegal meth can do to a community in my state and legalzing the worst drugs is the only way to eliminate the the value and market demand for them completely. Legalizing the worst drugs leads to a lack of motive for mass production and therefore no need to market them to new possible addicts looking to be rebelious and try new drugs.

I challenge anyone to disprove the laws of the free market. It is true economics is not much of a hard science, but this is because the free market is really a force of nature that is unstoppable.

I look forward to learning about the current state of law enforcement in this country and hearing more of your concerns.

Baltimore Mayor Kurt Schmoke believes drugs can be a revenue source for the government. "Remove the profit motive, and you put the dealers out of business... have government stores and buy marijuana cigarettes... nicely wrapped, purity and potency guaranteed with a tax stamp."[42]

Ethan Nadelmann, a former Princeton University professor and now director of the Lindesmith Center, states: "Make sure that junkies have access to clean needles; make it easy for addicts to obtain methadone; give heroin-maintenance programs a chance to work; decriminalize marijuana; stop spending billions on incarcerating drug users and drug dealers. We know we can reduce drug abuse more effectively by spending that money on education, pre and post natal care and job-training programs."[43]

Nadelmann told the Rolling Stone audience, "...The Pentagon's interdiction efforts, which cost U.S. taxpayers close to $1 billion... had no impact on the flow of drugs.... [The] drug war has been most efficient at filling up the country's prisons and jails."[44]

Dr. Robert Dupont, founding director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) and president of the Institute for Behavior and Health in Rockville, Maryland, refutes the economic myth. "We now have two legal drugs, alcohol and tobacco. We have 113 million current users of alcohol and 60 million tobacco users. The reason marijuana and cocaine use is so much lower is because they are illegal drugs. Cocaine and marijuana are more attractive than alcohol and tobacco. If we remove the prohibition of illegality we would have a number of users of marijuana and cocaine similar to that of tobacco and alcohol."[45]

Health costs associated with legalization would be very high. And legalization would have consequences elsewhere. For example, the Drug Enforcement Administration says legalization of drugs will cost society between $140-210 billion a year in lost productivity and job-related accidents. And insurance companies would pass on accident expenses to consumers.[46] The Institute for Health Policy at Brandeis University found that in 1990 dollars the societal cost of substance abuse is in excess of $238 billion, of which $67 billion is for illicit drugs. The report states, "As the number one health problem in the country, substance abuse places a major burden on the nation's health care system and contributes to the high cost of health care. In fact, substance abuse -- the problematic use of alcohol, illicit drugs and tobacco -- places an enormous burden on American society asa whole."[47]

The claim that legalization provides an opportunity to tax new products is misleading. For example, total tax revenue from the sale of alcohol is $13.1 billion a year, but alcohol extracts over $100 billion a year in social costs such as health care and lost productivity.[48] There is no evidence to demonstrate that taxing cocaine, heroin, and marijuana would bolster revenues any more than do alcohol and tobacco, nor would the revenue from such taxation offset the social and medical costs these illicit drugs would impose. The pro-drug lobby argues that legalization will save on enforcement costs. But elimination of drug enforcement would provide little funding for other uses. The government now spends 3.3 percent of its budget on the criminal justice system and half of that goes to enforcement. Less than 12 percent of law enforcement money goes to drug law enforcement.[49] Former Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare Joseph Califano cautions that in a post-legalization world, "Madison Avenue hucksters would make it as attractive to do a few lines [of cocaine] as to down a few beers."[50] This would line the pockets of legal drug producers, but it will clearly hurt the American taxpayer and American families.

[Piggybank Cop]

Stan you’re so smart; I want to be just like you when I grow up.

[Norm357]

Hey Stan, Glad to see you posting again!

[TXCharlie]

and the smoking policy in a bar was up to the bar owner.

Until Mary Poppins... uh, Mayor Laura Miller... came to Dallas - A Democrat, by the way

[StanSwitek]

Funny, the libertarians feel the same way

Actually, I take that back.
30 years ago we did not face no-knock raids, warrantless wiretaps, most states did not fine you for driving without a seatbelt, and the smoking policy in a bar was up to the bar owner.

30 years ago:

The laws for no knock warrants were the same as they are today. The law still requires police to knock & announce before forcing entery except in a few instances.

Warrantless wiretaps-We did not face the threat of terrorism as we do today.

Seatbelts- The laws have saved lives & reduced healthcare costs.

Smoking-It sure is awful enjoying a meal without being gagged by smokers. I also dont miss going home with clothes smelling like smoke not to mention the damage to my lungs.

[StanSwitek]

Hey Stan, Glad to see you posting again!

Dont think I will be here long with the new maggotry that is invading.

[lynnz05]

That poor girl was a bit slow & they really took advantage of her.

Well you cant be smart AND pretty...

[BEK]

because i guess i am like a Nazi...why do they always turn to bring up nazi's.... if these people were around during WW2 would be sideing with the germans and would be protesting the war. The libertarians that compaire everything to Nazi Germany are so screwed up, they want drugs legal. Nazi germany had druged all members of the SS and army with Methamphetimine, Hitler took the drug all the time and look at how well he turned out and what he did while on it.
If they try to say that they wouldnt side with the germans then let the games begin because i will point out all the genocide going on, Iran still wants to destroy all the jews...but i wont. I think i should take a shower because all these liberals envading makes me feel all dirty and stuff

[StanSwitek]

Well you cant be smart AND pretty...

What they did was wrong & they even had to play the "Nazis rounding up Jews" card. How low can they sink? Genocide is wrong. The actions of Hitler were the actions of a mad man. Comparing modern day drug enforcement to the halocaust is an afront to the jews.

[lynnz05]

What they did was wrong & they even had to play the Nazis rounding up Jews card. How low can they sink?

Ya, I know and they kinda did put me inbetween a rock and a hard place. Cuz its not the situation and no matter what I said it looked bad. And I was pissed cuz the reason I called was not to discuss whether or not my boyfriend would do something or not at work, I called to complain that they came here without introduction and started saying shit, I think most of the people here get enough shit from people throughout their work day, I doubt they want to come here and hear more stupid shit about thier jobs. End rant

[StanSwitek]

Ya, I know and they kinda did put me inbetween a rock and a hard place. Cuz its not the situation and no matter what I said it looked bad. And I was pissed cuz the reason I called was not to discuss whether or not my boyfriend would do something or not at work, I called to complain that they came here without introduction and started saying shit, I think most of the people here get enough shit from people throughout their work day, I doubt they want to come here and hear more stupid shit about thier jobs. End rant

What those pukes did was wrong. They are bullys just like they claim some cops are.

[FTL_Ian]

FTL Commercial-Free Show Archive:

http://ripple.radiotail.com/357/FTL2006-11-27.mp3

In the future, listen to archives and live via http://listen.freetalklive.com

[Citizen72521]

Please provide linkage to the sources you cite.

ON the show they cited the Netherlands as being a sucsess story on legalization. Here is the real story:

B. The Netherlands

Proponents of legalization almost certainly would cite Amsterdam as the drug Mecca of the Western world. Anyone may go into the restaurants in this city and order marijuana and hashish from a menu; further, heroin and cocaine have been decriminalized for all practical purposes. The police simply leave the users alone.

Great it sounds like the people are almost free.

Consequently, health officials estimate that Amsterdam has 7,000 addicts, 20% of whom are foreigners.

Libertarians are against socialist health care and welfare, which eliminates any burden on others.

58 These addicts are responsible for 80% of all property crime in the city, thus necessitating that Amsterdam maintain a police presence far greater than those of cities of comparable size in the United States.

The next question is how much crime do they have and what kinds compared to other areas like the US.

59 The Dutch have not raised one dollar in tax revenue from drug sales, and drug violators account for 50 percent of the Dutch prison population, a higher proportion than in the United States.

Libertarians are generally against most taxes and do not approve of paying to jail others, but the original idea of restitution for damages.
Criminals must pay their own way.

60 The Netherlands is the most crime-prone nation in Europe and most drug addicts live on state welfare payments and by committing crimes.61 Nationwide, the number of reported crimes increased to 1.3 million in 1992 from. 812,000 in 1981.62 Faced with public disgust at home over soaring drug related crime and pressure from other European Community countries to strengthen drug laws, Dutch authorities are implementing an aggressive program to reduce drug-linked crimes and disturbances and show new teeth in combatting illegal drug sales.63 Eberhard van der Laan, leader Of the Social Democrats in the Amsterdam City Council says, "People are absolutely fed up with all the troubles caused by drug addicts - car windows broken, noise, whole streets almost given up to the drug problem."64 Legalization advocates claim that marijuana use in Netherlands has not increased since the laws were liberalized, but the number of Amsterdam drug cafes rose from 30 to over 300 in one decade. They also fail to note that daily marijuana use by U.S. youth has declined by 75 percent.65

This article http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2006/...ey-goes-dutch/
points out some problems with Amsterdam.

The Dutch treat drug use a little like the way the public health crazies in this country would like to treat obesity. That means there is freedom to ingest some illicit drugs, but with massive government intervention, oversight, and a panoply of PR campaigns and state-funded treatment, and very little in the way of holding users responsible for using drugs, well, responsibly.

These point out a wealth of info on the International Drug War.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/handbook/hb108/hb108-56.pdf
http://www.cato.org/pubs/handbook/hb109/hb_109-60.pdf

Again Libertarians do not approve of paying taxes to care for other peoples individual problems. Only through charitable donations. Because taxation generally requires initiation of force against citizens making them pay for others responsibilities.
An interesting thing about the concept of Rights is they are a 2 sided coin they also inherently give responsibility.
People do NOT give up rights, but really responsibility although no one likes to admit this. It is done so we can then place the blame on others as well like the government and even Peace Officers!

[d_goddard]

30 years ago:
The laws for no knock warrants were the same as they are today.

Case law, my friend.
Most recently, Hudson v. Michigan
Most pertienently, in 1995 in Wilson v. Arkansas, the Supreme Court ruled that LE may enter a home without first announcing their presence.

Seatbelts- The laws have saved lives & reduced healthcare costs.

I assume then that you are in favor of a ban on fatty foods? You think I am being ridiculous, but Chicago just passed a ban on foie gras. I assume you are also in favor of mandatory exercise? Hey, I love going to the gym; I just have moral issues with forcing someone else to do so at gunpoint.

Smoking-It sure is awful enjoying a meal without being gagged by smokers. I also dont miss going home with clothes smelling like smoke not to mention the damage to my lungs.

You are failing to appreciate the difference between smoking on someone else's property, vs. smoking on your OWN property.

[d_goddard]

Until Mary Poppins... uh, Mayor Laura Miller... came to Dallas - A Democrat, by the way

Democrats are by and large far more offensive to the Constitution than Republicans are. This is not an opinion; it is a fact I have observed in the past 2 years of monitoring every single tabulated vote on the floor of the NH House, and after working with a team of people to read and rate every bill that was being voted on.

Yes, there are dozens of us, and yes, we feel strongly enough about the Constitution to do this kind of thing in our spare time

Anyway, Republicans are not guilt-free here: they have also eviscerated the Constitution, most noticeably the 9th and 4th Amendments. But by and large in my opinion the Republicans tend to be far more liberty-loving than the Democrats.

[BEB]

Please provide linkage to the sources you cite.

Citizen72521 : Google turned up this url for the article StanSwitek was quoting from. http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/...ths/myths4.htm

That result came up by doing a phrase search - hopefully its correct.