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  1. #41
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    Not only from a tyrannical government, but also to defend from foreign invasion. The word "militia" as used in the Second Amendment refered to able-bodied men that could be called upon to help defend the republic if needed. It never refered to the National Guard or any other kind of organized body, as some gun-grabbers would have you believe. Think about it--why would the military need a Consitutional Amendment to authorize them to be armed?

    Getting back to the idea of a tyrannical government, it seems impossible that the freest people in history would ever have to fear tyranny from their own elected government. But it's entirely possible. Hitler was democratically elected. He made it a point to disarm his own people before he started causing trouble with other countries. Imagine if Germany had had a Second Amendment in the 1930s. Imagine if the Jews had had private weapons when the SS came to round them up.
    "I'm not a coward,
    I've just never been tested
    I'd like to think that if I was,
    I would pass"
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor N TN View Post
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by countybear View Post
    Give that lady a cigar!

    Now that being said, how much of a restriction should a government be able to place on such ownership by its citizens, (who have not shown prior history of irresponsible firearm ownership or criminal behavior)?
    Hi countybear.

    I'm not trying to be sarcastic -- I'm just trying to understand the issue when I ask the following question:

    Given that the right to bear arms is intended to allow citizens to protect themselves from tyrannical government, shouldn't we be allowed to own all of the same types of arms as the government has access to -- everything from hand grenades to tanks to nuclear weapons? Cause if the 82nd Airborne was sent to take over my town, they could probably overcome pretty much any stockpile of guns my town could muster -- even my hometown in Texas.

    This reminds me of another funny story my husband told me from his Army years. My husband was explaining to me how soldiers are trained differently from law enforcement, and that asking regular soldiers to act as a police force was unreasonable for the soldiers because the missions and tactics are very different.

    The details on this story are a little fuzzy -- it might have been discussed as a lesson when he was at West Point. But, anyway, somehow, according to the story, a group in the Army (it might actually have been the 82nd Airborne) was somehow put in the position of working with civilian law enforcement in an urban area here in the U.S. The soldiers and the police had cornered a bad guy or guys. I think the soldiers and cops were on the ground, and the bad guy(s) were on a roof, or something like that.

    Anyway, the cops asked the soldiers to cover them while they somehow went around (or up) to get behind the bad guy(s) and grab them.

    As it was explained to me, the cops meant for the soldiers to watch the bad guy(s) and, if they stuck their head(s) up to fire at the cops, fire some warning shots to make them keep their heads down.

    Well, the soldiers did what they were trained to do in a combat situation, which was open a volley of such intensive, nonstop machine-gun fire on the bad guy(s) positions that, not only did they curl up and refuse to poke out their heads, they were scared so sh*tless that they gratefully surrendered to the cops as soon as the cops appered. It sounds like everything worked out in that situation but, clearly, tactics differed.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boring Civi View Post
    ...according to the story, a group in the Army (it might actually have been the 82nd Airborne) was somehow put in the position of working with civilian law enforcement in an urban area here in the U.S. The soldiers and the police had cornered a bad guy or guys. I think the soldiers and cops were on the ground, and the bad guy(s) were on a roof, or something like that.

    Anyway, the cops asked the soldiers to cover them while they somehow went around (or up) to get behind the bad guy(s) and grab them.

    As it was explained to me, the cops meant for the soldiers to watch the bad guy(s) and, if they stuck their head(s) up to fire at the cops, fire some warning shots to make them keep their heads down.

    Well, the soldiers did what they were trained to do in a combat situation, which was open a volley of such intensive, nonstop machine-gun fire on the bad guy(s) positions that, not only did they curl up and refuse to poke out their heads, they were scared so sh*tless that they gratefully surrendered to the cops as soon as the cops appered. It sounds like everything worked out in that situation but, clearly, tactics differed.
    Sounds like a load of Bravo-Uniform-Lima-Lima-Sierra-Hotel-Indigo-Tango to me

  5. #45
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    I agree Term
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    S&W beats 4 Aces every time

  6. #46
    countybear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boring Civi View Post
    Hi countybear.

    I'm not trying to be sarcastic -- I'm just trying to understand the issue when I ask the following question:

    Given that the right to bear arms is intended to allow citizens to protect themselves from tyrannical government, shouldn't we be allowed to own all of the same types of arms as the government has access to -- everything from hand grenades to tanks to nuclear weapons? Cause if the 82nd Airborne was sent to take over my town, they could probably overcome pretty much any stockpile of guns my town could muster -- even my hometown in Texas.
    How many of the 82nd AB do you think would honestly carry out a military strike on a U.S. civilian town, even if ordered to? The chances of first line military units attacking civilian targets on U.S. soil are slim, however a rogue "quasi-government" faction carrying out an operation is more likely. Citizens completely disarmed are just as completely defenseless. Also, remember that during the American Civil War (which we like to call the War of Northern Aggression down here), lesser armed and ill equipped Southern forces held off many advances by Federal troops over the course of years before finally succumbing to superior strength.

    The point of the founding fathers was never to leave U.S. citizens defenseless against any enemy, foreign or domestic.

    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
    - Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

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    To war and arms I fly.
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  7. #47
    kjlaw's Avatar
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    The story is an urban legand that was started following the Rodney King riots. There are hundreds of differant versions out there.

    Some one give term a nickle for hitting the right answer!


    Bravo-Uniform-Lima-Lima-Sierra-Hotel-Indigo-Tango
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  8. #48
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    [quote=Jackalope;244379]The word "militia" as used in the Second Amendment refered to able-bodied men that could be called upon to help defend the republic if needed. [quote]

    In a world of misinterpretation and right and left this should be clarified from original context.

    You could easily say that "able-bodied men that could be called upon to help defend the republic" could exclude criminals, gang bangers, etc.

    P.S. Victor, way to run off because people disagree. Whiner...
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terminator View Post
    Sounds like a load of Bravo-Uniform-Lima-Lima-Sierra-Hotel-Indigo-Tango to me
    I don't know what that means, but I bet it's not good.

    Oh well, maybe my significant other was pulling my leg. Wouldn't be the first time. He really did graduate from West Point, though. I've gone to the reunion parties, and they were pretty fun.

    The 82nd Airborne, of course, would likely refuse to attack an American town. I just thought that was a funny story, but repeating it created an unfortunate impression (both of my intelligence, and of my feelings about military and LE).

    So, does this mean the story about the guy who covered his whole body in DEET while they were out in the field and had to be medivac'd out is a fake to? Bummer, cause I thought that also was kinda funny.

    Anyway, I'm not at all against gun ownership. I've been around them most of my life. Some of my friends have concealed carry permits, and I've even fired a few guns myself.

    But, literally, I don't know how, given that the Constitution protects our right to bear arms, the government is then able to restrict the types of arms we bear. I realize the restrictions on citizens owning tactical nucs is a good idea , but the government must have some mechanism to address the Second Amendment when it does so.

    Countybear seems to be really up on law and philosophy, so I thought he might know the history and rationale the government has used to address the fact that "arms" now includes so much more than guns and swords. I was asking out of honest intellectual curiosity, nothing more. I'll stop being lazy and research the issue myself; I'm sure the material is readily available.

    P.S. I'm from the South, and some of my ancestors fought in the War of Northern Aggression.

  10. #50
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    Just an FYI, military is prohibited from engaging in CIVIL law enfrocement. When you see Federal troops with weapons in disaster situations, they don't have ammo. Now the National Guard is another story.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boring Civi View Post
    I don't know what that means, but I bet it's not good.

    Oh well, maybe my significant other was pulling my leg. Wouldn't be the first time. He really did graduate from West Point, though. I've gone to the reunion parties, and they were pretty fun.

    The 82nd Airborne, of course, would likely refuse to attack an American town. I just thought that was a funny story, but repeating it created an unfortunate impression (both of my intelligence, and of my feelings about military and LE).

    So, does this mean the story about the guy who covered his whole body in DEET while they were out in the field and had to be medivac'd out is a fake to? Bummer, cause I thought that also was kinda funny.

    Anyway, I'm not at all against gun ownership. I've been around them most of my life. Some of my friends have concealed carry permits, and I've even fired a few guns myself.

    But, literally, I don't know how, given that the Constitution protects our right to bear arms, the government is then able to restrict the types of arms we bear. I realize the restrictions on citizens owning tactical nucs is a good idea , but the government must have some mechanism to address the Second Amendment when it does so.

    Countybear seems to be really up on law and philosophy, so I thought he might know the history and rationale the government has used to address the fact that "arms" now includes so much more than guns and swords. I was asking out of honest intellectual curiosity, nothing more. I'll stop being lazy and research the issue myself; I'm sure the material is readily available.

    P.S. I'm from the South, and some of my ancestors fought in the War of Northern Aggression.
    Yes, he's one of them there smart, edjamacated ones.




  12. #52
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    Countybear seems to be really up on law and philosophy, so I thought he might know the history and rationale the government has used to address the fact that "arms" now includes so much more than guns and swords. I was asking out of honest intellectual curiosity, nothing more. I'll stop being lazy and research the issue myself; I'm sure the material is readily available.
    The Federal Government has restricted the sale of many different types of arms, but has always stopped short of banning gun ownership outright, primarily because of the fundamental arguments of the Second Amendment and the irrevocable nature of the Constitution's Bill of Rights as integral to our nation's foundational document. Threats to interpretation have, however been many, and some legislation has gone into effect restricting classes and types of weapons which citizens can legally own.

    There are two sides to the issue of the Second Amendment, and the debate still rages. Example:

    1. The United States Supreme Court and lower federal courts have consistently interpreted this Amendment only as a prohibition against Federal interference with State militia and not as a guarantee of an individual's right to keep or carry firearms. The argument that the Second Amendment prohibits all State or Federal regulation of citizen's ownership of firearms has no validity whatsoever.
      1. American Bar Association Coordinating Committee on Gun Violence, "Second Amendment Issues"
    and:

    We have noted that there is no unequivocal precedent that
    dictates the outcome of this case. This Court has never decided
    whether the Second Amendment protects an individual or
    collective right to keep and bear arms. On one occasion we
    anticipated an argument about the scope of the Second
    Amendment, but because the issue had not been properly raised
    by appellants, we assumed the applicability of the collective
    right interpretation then urged by the federal government.

    Fraternal Order of Police v. United States (F.O.P. II)
    , 173 F.3d

    898, 906 (D.C. Cir. 1999). The Supreme Court has not decided
    this issue either. See id. As we have said, the leading Second
    Amendment case in the Supreme Court is United States v.
    Miller. While Miller is our best guide, the Supreme Court’s
    other statements on the Second Amendment warrant mention.



    In


    Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393 (1857), the Court

    asserted the applicability of the Bill of Rights to the territories
    in the following terms:



    [N]o one . . . will contend that Congress can make any
    law in a Territory respecting the establishment of
    religion, or the free exercise thereof, or abridging the
    freedom of speech or of the press, or the right of the
    people of the Territory peaceably to assemble, and to
    petition the Government for the redress of grievances.



    . . . [n]or can Congress deny to the people the right to
    keep and bear arms, nor the right to trial by jury, nor
    compel any one to be a witness against himself in a
    criminal proceeding . . . . These powers . . . in relation
    to rights of person . . . are, in express and positive
    terms, denied to the General Government.



    Id.


    at 450 (emphasis added). Although Dred Scott is as

    infamous as it was erroneous in holding that African-Americans
    are not citizens, this passage expresses the view, albeit in
    passing, that the Second Amendment contains a personal right.
    It is included among other individual rights, such as the right to
    trial by jury and the privilege against self-incrimination. The
    other Second Amendment cases of the mid-nineteenth century
    did not touch upon the individual versus collective nature of the
    Amendment’s guarantee... - Parker v. DC, USCA DC Circuit, March 9, 2007

    It is still legal for a citizen (not otherwise disqualified from ownership) to posess even fully-automatic weapons, however the taxes, fees, and privacy surrender accompanying a Class III license (which is required for such weapons) are usually very prohibitive in nature unless the applicant is a professional dealer of such items. There are a lot of hoops to jump through.

    The ownership of explosives, etc. are also very closely regulated, but under separate acts by the government. Businesses dealing in demolition, mining, and some specialized forms of construction, as well as Hollywood special effects companies are legally allowed to possess and use nearly all classes of high explosives once obtaining the proper permit, exhibiting stringent security and storage procedures, undergoing inspections, and paying the fees required.

    Below is a summary of red-letter dates relating to gun legislation in America.



    1791Second Amendment Ratified It states, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." See U.S. Constitution.





    1871National Rifle Association Founded Union soldiers Col. William C. Church and Gen. George Wingate found the NRA to "promote and encourage rifle shooting on a scientific basis." Civil War Gen. Ambrose Burnside, who was also the former governor of Rhode Island and a U.S. Senator, serves as the organization's first president.





    1934National Firearms Act Brought about by the lawlessness and rise of gangster culture during prohibition, President Franklin D. Roosevelt hoped this act would eliminate automatic-fire weapons like machine guns from America's streets. Other firearms such as short-barreled shotguns and rifles, parts of guns like silencers, as well as other "gadget-type" firearms hidden in canes and such were also targeted. All gun sales and gun manufacturers were slapped with a $200 tax (no small amount for Americans mired in the Great Depression; that would be like a tax of $2,525 today) on each firearm, and all buyers were required to fill out paperwork subject to Treasury Dept. approval.





    1938Federal Firearms Act Congress aimed this law at those involved in selling and shipping firearms through interstate or foreign commerce channels. Anyone involved in the selling of firearms was required to obtain a Federal Firearms License from the Secretary of Commerce ($1 annual fee). They were also required to record the names and addresses of everyone they sold guns to and were prohibited from selling to those people who were convicted of certain crimes or lacked a permit.


    1968Gun Control Act The assassination of John F. Kennedy, who was killed by a mail-order gun that belonged to Lee Harvey Oswald, inspired this major revision to federal gun laws. The subsequent assasinations of Martin Luther King and presidential candidate Robert Kennedy fueled its quick passage. License requirements were expanded to include more dealers, and more detailed record keeping was expected of them; handgun sales over state lines were restricted; the list of persons dealers could not sell to grew to include those convicted of felonies (with some exceptions), those found mentally incompetent, drug users and more. The act also defined persons who were banned from possessing firearms.




    The key element of this bill outlawed mail order sales of rifles and shotguns; Up until this law, mail order consumers only had to sign a statement that they were over 21 years of age for a handgun (18 for rifle or shotgun); it also detailed more persons who were banned from possessing certain guns, including drug users, and further restricted shotgun and rifles sales.





    1972Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms created Enforcement of the Gun Control Act was given to the Dept. of the Treasury's Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Division of the Internal Revenue Service. The organization replaced "tax" with "firearms," nearly doubled in size, and became the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF).





    1986Law Enforcement Officers Protection Act Made it illegal for anyone to manufacture or import armor piercing ammunition, or "cop-killer bullets," which are capable of penetrating bulletproof clothing. Firearms Owners' Protection Act Eased restrictions on gun sellers and the sale of some guns. Imposed additional penalties for persons using a firearm during certain crimes and persons with robbery or burglary convictions who are illegally shipping guns.





    1990Crime Control Act Directed the attorney general to develop a strategy for establishing "drug-free school zones," including criminal penalties for possessing or discharging a firearm in a school zone. Outlawed the assembly of illegal semiautomatic rifles or shotguns from legally imported parts.


    1994Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act Imposed, on an interim basis, a five-day waiting period and background check before a licensed gun importer, manufacturer or dealer can sell or deliver a handgun to an unlicensed individual.

    Required a new National Instant Criminal Background Check System, run by the FBI, be ready to replace the waiting period by Nov. 30, 1998. The new background check system will apply to all firearms and will allow checks to be done over the phone or electronically with results returned immediately in most cases. Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act Commonly referred to as the "Assault Weapons Ban," this bill banned the manufacture, possession, and importation of new semiautomatic assault weapons and large-capacity ammunition feeding devices (or magazines) for civilian use.

    Criteria for semiautomatic assault weapons that fall under the ban are provided as well as a list of 19 specific firearms.

    Prohibits juveniles from possessing or selling handguns and directs the attorney general to evaluate proposed and existing state juvenile gun laws




    Hope this helps.

    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
    - Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

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    That from the nunnery
    Of thy chaste breast and quiet mind
    To war and arms I fly.
    - Lovelace

    The opinions expressed by this poster are wholly his own, and should never be construed to even remotely be in representation of his employer, its agencies or assigns. In fact, they probably fail to be in alignment with the opinions of any rational human being.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by countybear View Post
    Hope this helps.
    Yes, it did. Thank you very much Countybear. This is a fascinating issue. Have a great day.

 

 
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