Tasers

**themastermind** · 01-23-09, 03:09 AM

Originally Posted by jmur5074

The tasers uses are limitless in use of force encounters.

Example:
I'm familiar with an incident where a subj. was suicidal, in his apt., and armed with a knife. Phone contact was made and he was eventually coerced into coming outside. He was told, obviously, to be unarmed. Well, he came outside, knife in hand. One office had armed himself with a taser, behind the entry way to the apt. building (10 ft. behind the suspect when he exited). Other officers were on the sidewalk in front of the entryway, armed with firearms. The suspect refused to drop the knife at the commands of the officers armed with firearms. Before anyone had to make a decision to shoot him, the officer armed with the taser tased him in the back, he was disarmed, and taken into custody. Problem solved with no one dying. Had he refused to drop the knife, and was shot, his likelihood of dying would have been astronomically higher than being tased.

Moving on to intermediate weapons. Chemical sprays and gases can cause burns to fair skinned people, and cause breathing problems in almost everybody. A person with COPD, asthma, etc, can quickly die after being sprayed. If there are young children in the vicinity, spray cannot be deployed because it can affect them differently than adults. Some sprays can't be deployed near an open flame or ignition source. Not everyone is affected by sprays either. Also, spray may affect everyone in the room, including police officers.

Batons can cause extreme pain and injuries. Whether it be lacerations or broken bones, batons can injure people. If they strike a person in the wrong spot (head, neck, spine, throat, chest) they can quickly kill a person.

Hands on is probably my least favorite level of force because it brings you so close to your adversary. When your that close to a suspect, your gun belongs to the person who gets it out of the holster first. They can easily gouge your eyes, grab your throat, knock you out with a well placed punch or kick, go for a gun grab, or any other weapon you carry.

Tasers can be used at a distance. They can be used in confined areas, and only affect the person they make contact with. It doesn't stop your heart, breathing, and really is relativel painless (i think of it more as being incredibly uncomfortable than painful). Tasers work on EVERYONE as long as the connection is made correctly. Even hitting a person with the taser in a "sensitive" area (head,neck), although painful, is unlikely to kill or even permanently injure them.

In summary, until you have a verified LEO tag and real world experience, trust me when I speak, sit down, and shut up.

I have no problem with LEOs using force to get the job done, my only point was that the taser is not apparently as safe as it was advertised as being. Would I have a problem with a suspect getting broken bones? No, I don't. Do I have a problem with a suspect with a knife being shot? Nope.

My only point is, tasers can be a contributing factor of death. Taser continues to state that their product is safe, when in all actuality, its not in some cases.

As far as calling it less lethal, and using it as that, then most use of force policies should place the taser on the same level as the baton. From what I have been reading, in most cases its on the same level as say, pepper spray.

**jmur5074** · 01-23-09, 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by themastermind

I have no problem with LEOs using force to get the job done, my only point was that the taser is not apparently as safe as it was advertised as being. Would I have a problem with a suspect getting broken bones? No, I don't. Do I have a problem with a suspect with a knife being shot? Nope.

It's advertised as "less lethal" not non lethal. I'd say it's being advertised correctly.

Originally Posted by themastermind

My only point is, tasers can be a contributing factor of death. Taser continues to state that their product is safe, when in all actuality, its not in some cases.

Taser is not the contributing factor in the cause of death. If a person who is high on cocaine struggled with the police, and subsequently died of heart failure, would you say the police officers were a contributing cause of death? No. That person and the decisions he/she made were the contributing cause of death.

Originally Posted by themastermind

As far as calling it less lethal, and using it as that, then most use of force policies should place the taser on the same level as the baton. From what I have been reading, in most cases its on the same level as say, pepper spray.

What have you been reading? Use of Force policies? Who's? What percentage of the thousands of UOF policies nationwide have you read? How do you know where an intermediary weapon should be placed on a UOF policy? What UOF instructor training do you have? What experience do you have writing policies for law enforcement agencies?

You've been given an answer from more than one LEO. You yourself are not an LEO, so you can choose to accept our answers or not. But do not argue with us. We know what we're talking about based on real world experiences. You do not.

I'm going to leave this open for continued conversation, but stop arguing about a subject you clearly have no knowledge on.

**Rhino** · 01-23-09, 04:38 AM

Originally Posted by themastermind

Why do cops use tasers so much even when that have been linked to deaths?

Show me one piece of evidence conducted in a lab or in the field that shows me the taser has caused a death.

You clearly have come to this website with an agenda. You're question wasn't "are tasers as dangerous as some people claim?" You clearly have formed an opinion and ran with it. Because you lack the mental capacity for independant thought and will readily swallow what the media feeds you, it's not worth my time or consideration to carry this conversation any further. If you do find an objective source of legitimate information that shows Tasers have caused even one death in it's practical intended use, then I'll entertain your point. Until then, good day.

**srab** · 01-23-09, 04:56 AM

Themastermind, perhaps you're confuding the use of a Taser with the option of using one. They are often available and usefull (as in pervious specific examples) in cases where use of deadly force would have been justified. They are not used "in deadly force encounters" where a firearm should be used. The difference is the dynamic and continuous availability of the option, versus a situation where a particular level of force must be used. In adddition, it has been agreed by all involved, that Taser, much like other things in this world, are not 100% safe nor 100% effective. I don't think anyone argues with that. Nevertheless, all of the point made here prevail in making them a usefull tool, as originally intended.

**OfficerResource.com** · 01-23-09, 11:08 AM

Troll spray has also not been linked to any deaths, but We are willing to keep trying.

**mtaylor** · 01-23-09, 11:15 AM

Come on Reca we all know that "tasers dont kill people cops kill people"

Warning: The above comments in no way reflect MTaylor's true feelings and are only meant for comedic purposes!

**Motorwaycop** · 01-23-09, 12:52 PM

What are these "tasers" you speak of?

Oh I know there what the Govt said they wre going to give front line officers in the full knowledge that most forces, mine included, cannot afford to train their officers in their use.

Still my old fall back of having to subdue a violent person by beating them with a baton can't be risky can it!

**TXCharlie** · 01-23-09, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by themastermind

Not to be equally sarcastic as your initial response, but why on earth would you use a taser in a lethal force encounter? That would be poor tactics, and a safety issue for you LEOs.

Any situation where your less-lethal force options are limited can turn deadly - the lack of a Taser may cause an officer to decide to pull a gun as self-protection in case things go south (merely unholstering the gun or even threatning deadly force at this point would be perfectly permissible if someone did anything to make the officer fear imminent bodily injury, such as walking upon a fight).

But if the scumbag picks up a brick and attempts to charge at the officer with it, then scumbag will get shot. If it had been a Taser, scumbag would have only gotten tased.

It's really not as difficult to cross the boundary to a deadly force situation as you may think. I could be justified in shooting if someone just pointed a can of pepper spray at me, or tried to grab my gun in a fight - But tasing them would be less paperwork.

**lewisipso** · 01-23-09, 10:43 PM

Dammit!! I need to just stop sleeping altogether!

**jmur5074** · 01-23-09, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by lewisipso

Dammit!! I need to just stop sleeping altogether!

hahahahaha

**lewisipso** · 01-24-09, 12:08 AM

My only point is, tasers can be a contributing factor of death. Taser continues to state that their product is safe, when in all actuality, its not in some cases.

Shove one up your ass, pull the trigger and let's find out. Are you kidding? It's one of the safest, and most effective tools in use at this time by law enforcement. It's not my fault some fucking moron pumps themselves full of any kind of chemical that may or may not assist in furthering their mental deficiency. I'm called, I go. Once on scene I use whatever means I determine, in conjunction with law and policy, to do the job I am entrusted in doing.
I am sick and tired of hearing "experts" tell me what not to do and not substituting it with something that I can do. The fact that the VIOLATOR is the responsible person in such described instances is always overlooked. If you think tasers are so dangerous just what the hell would you like for me to do? How about we just shoot every person that poses even the slightest physical threat to us or themselves? Would that be acceptable? Don't assume to think for yourself that tasers are to dangerous to use and I won't tell you to shove one up your fucking ass. I dumbasses like you that contribute to the wave of "OMG" tasers kill, that make my job even harder than it has to be. I bet you would love to have all my weapons stripped from me and send me out to do my job. How about I grab you by the collar and throw you at the next person who wants to beat my ass to death as a sacrifice? Dipshit troller.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming. I'm going to get another pot of coffee.

**lewisipso** · 01-24-09, 12:21 AM

And another thing! It's stupid, irresponsible comments like yours that keep me from getting a taser. And people gasp when I baton a fucktard twice my size until they politely ask to be placed into handcuffs.

**mack** · 01-24-09, 06:39 AM

LEWIS, PUT DOWN THE COFFEE CUP!!!!!!!! I think you've had enough caffeine. LMAO

**adroitcuffs** · 01-24-09, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by themastermind

I have no problem with LEOs using force to get the job done, my only point was that the taser is not apparently as safe as it was advertised as being. Would I have a problem with a suspect getting broken bones? No, I don't. Do I have a problem with a suspect with a knife being shot? Nope.

My only point is, tasers can be a contributing factor of death. Taser continues to state that their product is safe, when in all actuality, its not in some cases.

As far as calling it less lethal, and using it as that, then most use of force policies should place the taser on the same level as the baton. From what I have been reading, in most cases its on the same level as say, pepper spray.

Would you have a problem with my freshly manicured fingernails piercing your eyeballs? Or would that not be allowed because they've not been advertised as "less than lethal" weapons?

Then again, I'd hate to sully a fresh manicure with the abdominal flesh my nails would have to pierce to gain access to your eyeballs...

**Captain America** · 01-24-09, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by adroitcuffs

Would you have a problem with my freshly manicured fingernails piercing your eyeballs? Or would that not be allowed because they've not been advertised as "less than lethal" weapons?

Then again, I'd hate to sully a fresh manicure with the abdominal flesh my nails would have to pierce to gain access to your eyeballs...

Ouch!!! It sounds like your having a nice cup of coffee too , Adroitcuffs.

**BigDawg** · 01-24-09, 10:44 AM

It amazes me when dumb ass liberals come to the site to argue something that they know nothing about, I mean I know there out there but to actually see them come here is amazing.

So if I understand you and what your saying.......You have no problem with the Police shooting and killing people, but you do have a problem with us using a Taser on someone?? If I have a subject with a knife or such that is high on drugs and I attempt to take them into custody and save their life by using a Taser and they die its wrong. But if I go ahead and just shoot them then its ok?? You really are fu**ed in the head with that thought process.