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  1. #1
    Willowdared's Avatar
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    Civil War in 4 Minutes

    This is pretty amazing....it's part of an exhibit at the Lincoln Presidential Library

    http://www.koreus.com/video/guerre-s...-minutes.html#
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    Sorrowful times that accomplished death and destruction. Interesting link however.
    Do not war for peace. If you must war, war for justice. For without justice there is no peace. -me

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    R.I.P. Arielle. 08/20/2010-09/16/2012


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    Jenna's Avatar
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    Pretty amazing that just 143 years ago, slavery was still considered perfectly legitimate, and even part of a way of life worth dying for, by a significant proportion of the US population. Makes me wonder what people will think of things we now consider legitimate after another 143 years.

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    MacLean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    Pretty amazing that just 143 years ago, slavery was still considered perfectly legitimate, and even part of a way of life worth dying for, by a significant proportion of the US population. Makes me wonder what people will think of things we now consider legitimate after another 143 years.
    Lady, slavery is still considered perfectly legitimate in parts of the world today - but the civil war wasn't about slavery.

    The part of a way of life worth dying for was perceived at the time as "States Rights."

    Hell, if you want to see more detested (by Americans) civil rights violations, you have no further to look than China.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    Lady, slavery is still considered perfectly legitimate in parts of the world today - but the civil war wasn't about slavery.

    The part of a way of life worth dying for was perceived at the time as "States Rights."

    Hell, if you want to see more detested (by Americans) civil rights violations, you have no further to look than China.

    Holy hell, even the guy from Washington State has that figured out.

    Meanwhile, fishing in Russia:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM
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  6. #6
    Jenna's Avatar
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    I know slavery wasn't the most important issue for Union or Confederate leaders to go to war, but it was part of the way of life that Confederates were fighting for, and it did end when the Union won, even if it wasn't the main reason for the war. To me the abolition of slavery is the only good thing that came out of that Civil War, which is ironic because it wasn't the main reason for the war. If I had Lincoln's job and slavery wasn't an issue, I would have said it was better to let the Confederacy secede than to have a civil war.

  7. #7
    MacLean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Five-0 View Post
    Holy hell, even the guy from Washington State has that figured out.
    I think it was you that mentioned before that I should have been born in the South.

    I've never understood that, and probably never will, but I seem to have it in me somewhere.
    I'm your huckleberry...

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  8. #8
    MacLean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    I know slavery wasn't the most important issue for Union or Confederate leaders to go to war, but it was part of the way of life that Confederates were fighting for, and it did end when the Union won, even if it wasn't the main reason for the war. To me the abolition of slavery is the only good thing that came out of that Civil War, which is ironic because it wasn't the main reason for the war. If I had Lincoln's job and slavery wasn't an issue, I would have said it was better to let the Confederacy secede than to have a civil war.
    With your education, I am somewhat shocked at your lack of historic grasp.

    1. Slavery was a bit part in the great discussion with guns.

    2. Slavery did *not* end in some magic flash at the end of the Civil War, although you could argue that it began to disintegrate.

    3. The only good thing to come out of the war was the end of slavery? Daayum. That is pretty ignorant. How about the 14th and 15th Amendments? How about the idea of preservation of the Republic? How about the concept of total warfare and the resulting conventions? How about preventing international intervention in our affairs? How about the compromise of 1877?

    4. If you had Lincoln's job, we'd be fucked and resemble a quiltwork of Balkan like states eventually dominated by Germany, if the rise of other powers didn't pop up with unintended consequences. Thankfully, Lincoln was a tough as nails Republican who had a better education.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  9. #9
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    There would have been no war if there had been no slavery.
    Molly Weasley makes Chuck Norris eat his vegetables.

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  10. #10
    MacLean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDawg View Post
    There would have been no war if there had been no slavery.

    I don't believe that is accurate, historically.

    It's comforting to some, but woefully inadequate.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  11. #11
    countybear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDawg View Post
    There would have been no war if there had been no slavery.
    Such is a very pretentious oversimplification... subjective, and logically inaccurate, especially considering that true abolitionists were a miniscule minority at the outset of the war (estimated by some historians as low as 3% of the adult citizenry).

    Perhaps such might be unable to definitively disprove due to the course of history, and the fact that history books are always written by the victors...

    however,

    I would invite the true student of this topic to study the following:

    Tariff of 1828
    Ordinance of Nullification
    Nullification Crisis of 1833
    Calhoun's Vice Presidential Resignation
    The Panic of 1837
    The Panic of 1857
    The Depression of 1857
    The founding of the Republican Party
    The Morrill Tariff Bill of 1860
    The Presidential Election of 1860
    Sectionalism
    The Contitution and Succession
    The abolition clauses of the Confederate Constitution

    or, just read what was spoken by just one of the men who led and fought;

    I apprehend that if all living union soldiers were summoned to the witness-stand, everyone of them would testify that it was the preservation of the American Union and not the destruction of Southern slavery that induced him to volunteer at the call of his Country. As for the South, it is enough to say that perhaps 80% of her armies were neither slave holders, nor had the remotest interest in the institution. No other proof, however, is needed than the undeniable fact that at any period of the war from its begining to near its close the South could have saved slavery by simply laying down its arms and returning to the union." --General John Brown Gordon

    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
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  12. #12
    Jenna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    With your education, I am somewhat shocked at your lack of historic grasp.

    1. Slavery was a bit part in the great discussion with guns.

    2. Slavery did *not* end in some magic flash at the end of the Civil War, although you could argue that it began to disintegrate.

    3. The only good thing to come out of the war was the end of slavery? Daayum. That is pretty ignorant. How about the 14th and 15th Amendments? How about the idea of preservation of the Republic? How about the concept of total warfare and the resulting conventions? How about preventing international intervention in our affairs? How about the compromise of 1877?

    4. If you had Lincoln's job, we'd be fucked and resemble a quiltwork of Balkan like states eventually dominated by Germany, if the rise of other powers didn't pop up with unintended consequences. Thankfully, Lincoln was a tough as nails Republican who had a better education.
    1. Agreed.

    2. Slavery was made illegal throughout the USA at the end of the Civil War, and ended in reality soon afterwards. Former slaves never did attain all the rights most other US citizens enjoyed, but at least they weren't slaves.

    3. The 14th and 15th Amendments, the idea of preservation of the Republic, the concept of total warfare and the resulting conventions, preventing international intervention in our affairs, and the compromise of 1877 were good things, but not worth the lives of soldiers who died on both sides. What I meant was that the abolition of slavery was the only good thing that came out of the Civil War that I consider worth dying for, which is ironic since most on both sides did not think it was what they were dying for.

    4. Or maybe the Union and the Confederacy would have successfully allied together in WWI or WWII even if they were not part of one Union, and then eventually reunited in some way, like all those European countries that had been warring with each other for millennia but are now united in the European Union. Who knows if WWI or WWII would even have happened if the US had never had a Civil War? Not that I think the USA had a significant role in causing WWI and WWII, but any change in historical circumstances in any country may well have indirectly changed world events. This is why time travellers are supposed to avoid changing anything in history, no matter how small! In any case, I don't think anyone can know for sure what history would have been like in the long term if there were a Union and a Confederacy rather than one USA. Counterfactuals are impossible to prove. I just don't believe wars should be fought unless refusal to fight a war is likely to result in even more death and suffering than the war itself. I think this was true in the case of the Civil War only because of the abolition of slavery, not because of preserving the Union.

  13. #13
    mack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDawg View Post
    This is pretty amazing....it's part of an exhibit at the Lincoln Presidential Library

    http://www.koreus.com/video/guerre-s...-minutes.html#


    Aside from the heated discussion above. Excellent video, what amazed me was the death toll, I never realized the northern deaths so outweighed the southern deaths.

    The sadest to me about the war was how it tore families apart, and that the tear was rarely repaired. So many heartbreaks, truely a sad episode in our history, all pretty much because of money.

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  14. #14
    Five-0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack View Post
    Aside from the heated discussion above. Excellent video, what amazed me was the death toll, I never realized the northern deaths so outweighed the southern deaths.

    Never underestimate superior leadership. Many of Robert E. Lee's tactics are still in practice today. Political motivations handicapped the Union forces, just like today. The naval blockade won the war for the Union. Combine leadership with the gun culture of the South and you have a lethal combination. Much like you do today. Southern states per capita far out wiegh other states in military service (particularly in National Guard service). Many things can be learned from our nation's Civil War. Great tactics from Gen. Lee and the war time mindset from Gen. Sherman. I firmly believe that is Gen. Sherman's principle to fighting a war were adopted to the war on terror the terrorists would stop or die within a year. Google Gen. William T. Sherman quotes and you see what I mean.

    Meanwhile, fishing in Russia:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM
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  15. #15
    MacLean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    The 14th and 15th Amendments, the idea of preservation of the Republic, the concept of total warfare and the resulting conventions, preventing international intervention in our affairs, and the compromise of 1877 were good things, but not worth the lives of soldiers who died on both sides. What I meant was that the abolition of slavery was the only good thing that came out of the Civil War that I consider worth dying for, which is ironic since most on both sides did not think it was what they were dying for.
    That pretty much sums up our differences.

    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~John Stewart Mill
    I'm your huckleberry...

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  16. #16
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    I think Patton said it best. "No one ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by getting some other poor sucker to die for his country." Or words to that effect.


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