'Try our jobs' say armed police

**Standard Dave** · 01-02-07, 03:17 PM

Police marksmen from Scotland Yard's specialist firearms unit are to offer people a chance to see for themselves how difficult their jobs can be.

People will test how they would respond in a typical firearms scenario by using laser guns in a video simulation.

The test is part of the training plan for specialist CO19 firearms teams.

Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghafur said it was important for people to experience a realistic scenario, rather than one fuelled by TV and film images.

In the exercise, participants, working in pairs, have to decide whether to shoot armed suspects.

Split-second decisions

Sometimes, if they chose not to, the video runs on to show the suspect shooting an innocent member of the public.

The idea is to replicate the split-second decision making process firearms officers go through when confronted by someone wielding a gun.

Afterwards, participants are asked to recall information about the scenario to show how difficult it is to accurately remember simple details in such a fast-paced and stressful environment.

Senior officers frequently try to highlight the pressure of firearms work, where a decision taken in a fraction of a second can have life or death consequences and where the ramifications can last for years.

The Met's firearms unit has been in the spotlight for the past 18 months following the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes at Stockwell Tube station and the controversial Forest Gate raid, in which an unarmed man was shot in the shoulder.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6225867.stm

**bmf95b** · 01-02-07, 05:32 PM

cool

**Piggybank Cop** · 01-02-07, 05:38 PM

Bad guy with a weapon = dead.

**TXCharlie** · 01-02-07, 07:23 PM

Are they talking about a FATS machine or LaserShot?

I've had a few minutes on a FATS at a local Police Academy, but I didn't like it because there was a significant delay in the sound and shot results, and no recoil.

There used to be a video simulator at a local public gun range here where you could do live fire against a disposable screen, and the computer scored it just like a FATS - but I don't see it advertised on their web site anymore... I think they've replaced it with a LaserShot brand simulator.

that's where I took my armed guard training, but I never rented time on their simulator. I think it was like $100 per hour or something like that

**BEB** · 01-02-07, 08:47 PM

Sounds like a good idea to me. I'd be interested in doing it.

**Jackalope** · 01-02-07, 10:18 PM

If they want to make an impression on the public, they should simulate what an unarmed officer goes through when he faces a gun.

Charlie, I've used a FATS that had a recoil on the gun. It was very realistic.

**TXCharlie** · 01-02-07, 11:18 PM

I've heard of those, but the academy's didn't have the recoil option I guess (or they didn't have it turned on)... You pulled the trigger and a 10th of a second later you heard this very unrealistic echoing gunshot - The delay drove me crazy.

I killed the guy & woman I was supposed to kill, but one intended for his head went wild onto a freeway behind the guy - It was quite a surprize when the good people turned out to be the bad people and popped out of the car with guns drawn - The person I thought was the bad guy at first turned out to be the complaintant who had driven back to the scene, and no mention was made of a woman in the complaint - It was all f'd up!

**Jackalope** · 01-03-07, 12:56 AM

I was only able to go once, since we had a big group. My scenario was easy. It was a sniper on a rooftop, and I could hear his shots before I could see him. So I had my gun drawn early. In the other scenarios the people had to keep their gun holstered until they saw a threat.

I missed with my first shot (hitting a high-rise building in the distance) and then had two good shots in his chest. That machine is sweet. I ought to get one for the house.

**conalabu** · 01-03-07, 01:00 AM

We just did FATS at our PD. Sweet program, but I can't wait for the updated sweeter versions.

**TXCharlie** · 01-03-07, 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by Jackalope

That machine is sweet. I ought to get one for the house.

I think LaserShot makes one for the house that works with your big screen TV (the one I haven't bought yet), but I don't know how much it costs

**Trojan 42** · 01-03-07, 03:48 AM

Bloody stupid idea, obviuosly thought up by some senior officer with nothing better to do! It's bad enough doing it for Press Days, who can then report it to a large audience, but for some of the public it's a waste of time.

**BEB** · 01-03-07, 05:04 AM

If it's just for fun and games I guess I'd agree. I would like to go through the simulator along with use of force training. That's what I had in mind.

**Trojan 42** · 01-03-07, 06:12 AM

CO19 are working all the hours possible and the Instructors are almost at full capacity with training commitments, so to use valuable resources in this way is a waste. Can you expect a member of the public to use a weapon accurately with a few minutes of instruction beforehand? No. So to let them shoot on any of the Simulators available is not going to prove much, if anything.

**Standard Dave** · 01-03-07, 08:30 AM

I assume it's something like the SAT ranges I used in the UK military.

I think it's supposed to show the decision making processes and how hard it can be not so much whether the public will hit the targets.

**Tennsix** · 01-03-07, 09:45 AM

We set up our FATS for public used once. We ran it for three days and people lined up to "play" with it. Without exception, everyone left with a better appreciation and understanding of use-of force circumstances. As a part of the scenario, the participants had to "use" their radio, issue vocal instructions, keep track of their rounds, etc. Most were blown away.

During that time a near-by PD was under fire for shooting an unarmed suspect. The incident was ruled a good shoot but the public (and press) was very vocal about it. As luck would have it, we had a scenario that was very similar to that incident. Most of the people shot the suspect. The remainder did not shoot only because they froze.

**TXCharlie** · 01-03-07, 10:51 AM

At a local Citizens Police Academy, they run the public (those who pass a background check) through one full night of "Shoot/Don't Shoot" scenarios, both on the FATS machine and using live actors.

I think it is very valuable as an eye-opener (due to the number of people, about 20, each person had very little actual time and therefore it could not be considered training by any stretch of the imagination).

A good percentage of us (about 1/3 by my count) had CHL's already - The PD asked for a hand count, and of course they already knew from the B.G. checks. That PD (definitely not my town's PD) was very open about their approval for CHL's, provided that people got training and used common sense.

We also went up against a hostage taker who had a hidden gun in one hand and a visible gun in the other - The idea was that he would surrender the visible gun and then he'd shoot you with the hidden gun. I nailed that SOB before he could swing his hidden gun out

And yes, I killed a off-duty cop in another scenario when he jerked around in a dark bathroom and flashed his shiny badge at me... That was a rather sick feeling, even if it was a scenario - And that was the reaction that the PD was hoping for, to encourage CHL holders to seek training.

There were about 6 scenarios in all using squib saftey rounds and real (although crappy) revolvers, plus two or three on the FATS machine. I'd pay to do that every weekend.

**Motorwaycop** · 01-03-07, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by Jackalope

If they want to make an impression on the public, they should simulate what an unarmed officer goes through when he faces a gun.

Nah, way too messy!

**keith720** · 01-03-07, 06:01 PM

I've never done the FATS training, but we go through Simunitions at least twice a year. It's great training, because the way we set it up is that not every situation is going to be a shoot situation. We aslo set up situations that will end peacefully if you handle it appropriately, both verbally and tactically. A couple of times, I was shot by the "bad guy," and not only is it a learning experiance, it hurts!

**TXCharlie** · 01-03-07, 09:16 PM

They demonstrated Simunition for us too - One lucky cop got in front of the class, and another (luckier) cop shot him in the bare arm. Then he walked around and showed us the red mark

lol

**Jackalope** · 01-04-07, 01:00 AM

Originally Posted by keith758

I've never done the FATS training, but we go through Simunitions at least twice a year. It's great training, because the way we set it up is that not every situation is going to be a shoot situation. We aslo set up situations that will end peacefully if you handle it appropriately, both verbally and tactically. A couple of times, I was shot by the "bad guy," and not only is it a learning experiance, it hurts!

Most (if not all) FATS machines are set up as shoot/no shoot training, with marksmanship being a secondary concern.

When the video starts, the operator can decide whether to make the subject a threat or not. For instance, a video can have a bad guy pull a gun out. Later on, the operator can play the same video but the same "bad guy" is now a good guy just getting his wallet out to show you his ID.