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  1. #1
    BEK's Avatar
    BEK
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    No-spank bill on way thanks CA

    SACRAMENTO - The state Legislature is about to weigh in on a question that stirs impassioned debate among moms and dads: Should parents spank their children?

    Assemblywoman Sally Lieber, D-Mountain View, wants to outlaw spanking children up to 3 years old. If she succeeds, California would become the first state in the nation to explicitly ban parents from smacking their kids.

    Making a swat on the behind a misdemeanor might seem a bit much for some -- and the chances of the idea becoming law appear slim, at best -- but Lieber begs to differ.

    ``I think it's pretty hard to argue you need to beat a child 3 years old or younger,'' Lieber said. ``Is it OK to whip a 1-year-old or a 6-month-old or a newborn?''

    The bill, which is still being drafted, will be written broadly, she added, prohibiting ``any striking of a child, any corporal punishment, smacking, hitting, punching, any of that.'' Lieber said it would be a misdemeanor, punishable by up to a year in jail or a fine up to $1,000, although a legal expert advising her on the proposal said first-time offenders would probably only have to attend parenting classes.

    The idea is encountering skepticism even before it's been formally introduced. Beyond the debate among child psychologists -- many of whom believe limited spanking can be effective -- the bill is sure to face questions over how practical it is to enforce and opposition from some legislators who generally oppose what they consider ``nanny government.''

    ``Where do you stop?'' asked Assemblyman Chuck DeVore, R-Irvine, who said he personally agrees children under 3 shouldn't be spanked but has no desire to make it the law. ``At what point are we going to say we should pass a bill that every parent has to read a minimum of 30 minutes every night to their child? This is right along those same lines.''

    One San Jose mother of three said she believes spanking is a poor way to discipline children, but she also wondered whether a legislative ban makes sense. Should a mom who slaps her misbehaving kid in the supermarket, she asked, be liable for a crime?

    ``If my 6-year-old doesn't put his clothes in the hamper, I'm not going to whack him. He just won't get his clothes washed,'' said Peggy Hertzberg, 38, who teaches parenting classes at the YWCA. ``I think instead of banning spanking, parents need to learn different ways of disciplining and redirecting their children.''

    Lieber conceived the idea while chatting with a family friend and legal expert in children's issues worldwide. The friend, Thomas Nazario, said that while banning spanking might seem like a radical step for the United States, more than 10 European countries already do so. Sweden was the first, in 1979.

    Nazario said there's no good rationale for hitting a child under 3, so the state should draw a ``bright line'' in the law making it clear.

    ``Why do we allow parents to hit a little child and not someone their own size?'' asked Nazario, a professor at the University of San Francisco Law School. ``Everyone in the state is protected from physical violence, so where do you draw the line? To take a child and spank his little butt until he starts crying, some people would define that as physical violence.''

    It's unclear how a spanking ban would be enforced. Most slapping, after all, happens in the confines of a home, and most children up to age 3 aren't capable of reporting it.

    Doctors, social workers and others who believe a child has been abused are required by law to report it to authorities. Nazario said he and Lieber are still debating whether to treat slapping the same way, or simply to encourage those who witness it to report it. But in either case, said Lieber, the law ``would allow people who view a beating to say, `Excuse me, that's against the law.' ''

    Experts in child psychology disagree over whether spanking is a legitimate or effective way for parents to discipline their children. Professor Robert Larzelere, who has studied child discipline for 30 years, said his research shows spanking is fine, as long as it's used sparingly and doesn't escalate to abuse.

    ``If it's used in a limited way,'' the Oklahoma State University professor said, ``it can be more effective than almost any other type of punishment.'' He added that children 18 months old or younger shouldn't be spanked at all, because they can't understand why it's happening.

    As for Lieber's proposal, the professor said: ``I think this proposal is not just a step too far, it's a leap too far. At least from a scientific perspective there really isn't any research to support the idea that this would make things better for children.''

    But Lieber is optimistic that lawmakers will find her proposal hard to resist. For the record, she does not have children and says she was not slapped as a child. But she does have a cat named Snoop, which her veterinarian told her never to hit.

    ``And if you never hit a cat,'' Lieber said, ``you should never hit a kid.''


  2. #2
    BEB
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    Opposed.

  3. #3
    BEK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BEK320 View Post


    ``If my 6-year-old doesn't put his clothes in the hamper, I'm not going to whack him. He just won't get his clothes washed,'' said Peggy Hertzberg, 38, who teaches parenting classes at the YWCA. ``I think instead of banning spanking, parents need to learn different ways of disciplining and redirecting their children.''
    I have a 7 year old and a 2 year old...I can tell you that it DOESNT MATTER they will wear anything dirty, clean they dont care. The problem is the lack of spanking going on in this nation. Good lord these kids now days will talk back to you, threatin to call the cops on you, THEY will hit you. Its time to say parents need to start spanking. Now children under 3 should never be spanked. But dosent CA have child abuse laws that they need to waste taxpayeer moneys putting this dumb law on the book. CA why dont you get back to work on making guns illegal or better yet seperate yourself from the U.S...Get a life you over paid dumb *


  4. #4
    10-42Adam's Avatar
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    I'm not so sure about this one.

    My parents never did anything that crossed the line when I was growing up. But hell, I knew after one good slap across my ass from my Father that I was never gonna do that again, that's for sure!
    Calm Like A Bomb...

    A pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. An optimist sees opportunity in every difficulty.
    -Winston Churchill

  5. #5
    Jackalope's Avatar
    Jackalope is offline Yell O
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    How arrogant does a politician need to be to think that she knows how to raise your kids better than you do? Government won't interfere with the "right" of crackheads to have kids, but by God they'll imprison any decent person who dares discipline their own kid.
    "I'm not a coward,
    I've just never been tested
    I'd like to think that if I was,
    I would pass"
    ~Mighty Mighty Bosstones~

  6. #6
    10-42Adam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope View Post
    How arrogant does a politician need to be to think that she knows how to raise your kids better than you do? Government won't interfere with the "right" of crackheads to have kids, but by God they'll imprison any decent person who dares discipline their own kid.
    Good point +1
    Calm Like A Bomb...

    A pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. An optimist sees opportunity in every difficulty.
    -Winston Churchill

  7. #7
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    I might as well go ahead and give myself a court date.

  8. #8
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    Deputy2400 is offline Professional Rights Advisor
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    You truly are an applicator of pubic sanctions!
    If you run from me...you'll just go to jail tired!

  9. #9
    Star Man's Avatar
    Star Man is offline Guns only have two enemies; rust and politicians
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewell View Post
    I'm not so sure about this one.

    My parents never did anything that crossed the line when I was growing up. But hell, I knew after one good slap across my ass from my Father that I was never gonna do that again, that's for sure!
    Hell yea, same here!
    ...........................................

  10. #10
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    bird1 is offline Corporal
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    never underestimate the power of a good old fashion ass whipping. hell it worked for me and look where i am now. thats what all these knukleheads out there lacked in life mom and dad bringing the smackdown.
    " The hardest thing about disarming an armed suspect is not slipping on your own shit "

    Michael P. Gordon E.O.W 08 Aug 2004




    The opinions given in my posts DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are MY PERSONAL OPINIONS and I accept sole responsibility as such.

  11. #11
    BEB
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewell View Post
    I'm not so sure about this one.
    My parents never did anything that crossed the line when I was growing up. But hell, I knew after one good slap across my ass from my Father that I was never gonna do that again, that's for sure!
    Quote Originally Posted by bird1 View Post
    never underestimate the power of a good old fashion ass whipping. hell it worked for me and look where i am now. thats what all these knukleheads out there lacked in life mom and dad bringing the smackdown.
    I know it's very politically incorrect, un-libertarian, etc down the line, but I support corporal punishment. It's a fine notion to think we can reason everything out, but that ignores the nature of what we are. We're not robots; we're animals. We don't come preprogrammed; we require teaching. That teaching has to come in ways we understand at the various points in our development.

    My folks never went too far either. So I'm biased. I've had a stranger grab me and get right in my face for a 'talking to' as well - as that's where it ended I don't think he went too far. I'm biased there too, and quite out of date on my thinking there as it turns out.

    "Spare the rod, spoil the child" Well call me a liberal, as would be the case in the days of that saying, but I'm not for beating kids with implements. Not for beating kids in any form. But I don't see a spanking as a beating.

    Someday in the future this post will be found on an archive and I'll be seen as the worst kind of brute by all. (already by many) Meanwhile the kids of that future will probably be drugged into a zombie state as a way to keep them from harm.

    Anyone up for some Ritalin?

    --BEB

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by deputysykes View Post
    I might as well go ahead and give myself a court date.

    Me too... I have four boys, all under 8 years old. I think I have developed tendonitis in my elbow from all of the "beating" that goes on in my house.

  13. #13
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    Well I say if this law passes the police in CA need to take down all the contact information of the politicians that voted for it. Names, address, phone numbers, email etc. When the police get a call of an unruly child, and you cant spank them or anything else, just give the parents the politicians information. Since they know how to raise the child so well, let them help raise them. Remind them "it takes a village".
    "An Unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." Jeff Cooper


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  14. #14
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    hell, it would be cheaper for me to pay the expenses of moving out of Cali compared to the fines I would indure there
    LAW ENFORCEMENT HELPING"PERPS" SLIP DOWN STAIRS SINCE 1766!

  15. #15
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    Just save it up for three years and one day then wail the snot out of the little sucker.

    See how easy that was.


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  16. #16
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    Aren't the Democrates wonderful to address every aspect of your life. Next thing is they'll dictate your dinner time and what you're allowed to eat.

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    Plain and simple kids need discipline. There is a big difference between beating a child and spanking a child to gain his/her attention.

    If I had not began popping my kids hands from messing with stuff that could hurt them when they were learning to crawl, pull up on things, and walk ... good grief, I hate to think what more could have happened. Which is usually experienced before the age of three.

    Times like this is when the govt really needs to butt out and worry about running the Country, Cities, etc.


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    I spanked my kids and they have both turned out to be productive adults

  19. #19
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    I know that I am the person that I am because of the discipline that my parents instilled in me from an early age. My first word was "No", I would point at a Verbotten object say it and when I said it I pulled my right hand to my chest and covered it as if it had been swatted. I did this because I knew what would happen if I touched the said object.

    My children obey me because they know what will happen if they don't. They don't listen to my wife for shit because she doesn't do the discipline thing. She doesn't believe in it. Unfortunately they're living with her ATM. I hope they don't stray too far from what I've taught them.
    "Where's your towel Arthur?" -Ford Prefect

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  20. #20
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    A little late for that, she's moved out and didn't leave a forwarding address. Which is fine with me... Just as long as she lets me see the kids.
    "Where's your towel Arthur?" -Ford Prefect

    "You! On your knees!" -Green Jello

    Some take delight in the carriages a rollin'
    and some take delight in the hurley and the bowlin',
    I take delight in the juice of the barley,
    and courtin' pretty fair maids in the morning bright and early...


    "You are, without a doubt, the worst pirate I've ever heard of..." Cmdre. Norrington "Ah, but you have heard of me." Capt. Jack Sparrow

    Warning my statements do not reflect the policies, procedures or views of my agency. As a matter of fact, they think I'm just as nuts as you do, so shove it and blow it out of your fart tube.

 

 
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