Dead man's father slams rescue bid

**Standard Dave** · 07-05-07, 07:16 AM

Dead man's father slams rescue bid

The father of a man who died after he got stuck in a drain during floods has slammed fire services, claiming the rescue bid was botched.

Mike Barnett, 28, became stuck in neck-high water when he got his foot caught in a makeshift metal grille in a storm drain behind the tropical fish importers where he worked, at Astral Close in Hessle, near Hull.

He died of hypothermia after a four-hour rescue attempt on June 25.

Mr Barnett's father, also called Michael, has asked why rescuers did not break or amputate his leg in order to free him. It is reported a police investigation has been launched.

Last week, Geoffrey Claxton, whose son, Andrew, runs Kingston Koi Company where Mr Barnett worked, expressed concern at how the emergency services reacted to the rescue.

He said: "It was quite a while before the firemen came. He was getting weaker and weaker. They didn't have a clue how to get him out. All they needed was a chain and a Land Rover and that would have pulled him out."

Mr Barnett Snr, a retired panel beater, said he was turned away by police at the scene but would have told emergency crews to amputate his son's limb if it meant they could free him. He said: "I would have said do it. Do anything."

He returned home, switched on his television and immediately learned of his son's death. He said: "The television said 'Young man trapped in drain has died'. I just turned the telly off. I didn't want to believe it, but I suppose I knew I had lost him."

He added: "I wish I had been allowed to help. I would have got him out. I would have done anything to save him. I wasn't allowed to go anywhere near and now I will never see him again."

He added: "It has taken me 11 years to get over the death of his mother. What am I going to do without him?"

© Independent Television News Limited 2007. All rights reserved.

http://www.virginmedia.com/news/uk/u...toryid=9958519

A chain and a landrover and just pull him out, underwater amputation. I know these people have lost a friend or family member but what planet are they on ?

**Standard Dave** · 07-05-07, 07:26 AM

Flooding victim was 'left to die'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/humber/6272532.stm

The BBC run an almost identifcal article.

**Trojan 42** · 07-05-07, 08:04 AM

I think he does have a point though.

**Pudge** · 07-05-07, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by Standard Dave

Dead man's father slams rescue bid

A chain and a landrover and just pull him out, underwater amputation. I know these people have lost a friend or family member but what planet are they on ?

I'm guessing if they would have had the tools to go underwater and amputate, they would have had the tools to cut the metal grate.

**jmur5074** · 07-05-07, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by Trojan 42

I think he does have a point though.

Are you serious??

**Trojan 42** · 07-05-07, 08:41 AM

Yes I'm serious. I've asked my son, who is a Crew Commander on an Emergency Rescue Unit with the London Fire Brigade, and he is amazed that they couldn't free him. They have breathing apparatus and the appropriate cutting kit for such a rescue. However the Fire Service where the incident occurred may not have.

**gozling** · 07-05-07, 11:00 AM

I sort of wonder why as well.. .considering they just cut off a kids appendage to free him from an auto wreckage here not too long ago...
I guess if they didnt have the equipment then that is one thing...
what an awful story.

**Trojan 42** · 07-06-07, 02:33 AM

Looking at the depth of the water on the latest reports, my son came up with the following. Sandbag around the victim, cover them with waterproof material, pump the water out of the area, let medics deal with keeping the victim warm, cut the grill or jack it open, remove victim. No special kit needed, other than what is carried on the Appliance.

**Cst.SB** · 07-06-07, 03:53 AM

The object of the game is to save the life is it not. Dead is dead, it's the worst sate of health there is. It's a lot worse than a bad amputation.

Last summer we had a surgeon on route to take a 17 girls leg off above the knee, because the FD couldn't extract her and she was real bad shape and wasn't going to make it if her other injuries weren't taken care of. Lucky for her, though I don't know if she kept the leg in the end, but the FD got her out just as the surgeon was arriving on scene.

Amputations happen, people get stuck and sometimes it's remove the limb or they die of shock. In this case, unless the guy was going to grow some gills, the outcome was pretty obvious - cut him out one way or another, or he's going to die.

**213th** · 07-06-07, 03:54 AM

Originally Posted by Trojan 42

Looking at the depth of the water on the latest reports, my son came up with the following. Sandbag around the victim, cover them with waterproof material, pump the water out of the area, let medics deal with keeping the victim warm, cut the grill or jack it open, remove victim. No special kit needed, other than what is carried on the Appliance.

That yes.

But amputating or breaking a leg? That is not an EMS procedure. Never. Amputating could be done by a surgeon, if available, but at least in Alaska, we are taught never ever for amputating or delibaretly causing harm (like breaking a bone).

The dad is off his rocker. Landrover and a chain??? He'd be suing the FD if they did that.

**BEB** · 07-06-07, 04:17 AM

I'm trying to find a picture of this grate.

Better phrasing for what he meant to do with a Land Rover :

He believes his son's life could have been saved by pulling off the grate using a Land Rover. He would also have approved the amputation of his son's leg, an option which was discussed by rescue services.

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/arc...dying_man.html

Video of the rescue attempt here:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/vi...273762,00.html
Doesn't show the grate, but it sets the scene much better.

**Cst.SB** · 07-06-07, 04:26 AM

Originally Posted by 213th

That yes.

But amputating or breaking a leg? That is not an EMS procedure. Never. Amputating could be done by a surgeon, if available, but at least in Alaska, we are taught never ever for amputating or delibaretly causing harm (like breaking a bone).

The dad is off his rocker. Landrover and a chain??? He'd be suing the FD if they did that.

So here is the question - would you have just stood by and let him die because of a procedure?

**Cst.SB** · 07-06-07, 04:33 AM

Originally Posted by BEB

I'm trying to find a picture of this grate.

Better phrasing for what he meant to do with a Land Rover :

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/arc...dying_man.html

Video of the rescue attempt here:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/vi...273762,00.html
Doesn't show the grate, but it sets the scene much better.

Sad, though 4 hours of trying to get him out, is hardly "leaving him there to die", and the victim's father suggested.

And it sounds like they were on track to amputate the leg but he died before they could.

Looks to me like they above and beyond the call of duty.

**Beans** · 07-06-07, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by Trojan 42

I think he does have a point though.

What have you been putting in your tea lately?

**Trojan 42** · 07-06-07, 05:47 AM

Milk

**213th** · 07-06-07, 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by Cst.SB

So here is the question - would you have just stood by and let him die because of a procedure?

That is something that I truly don't think I can answer without being in their position. The logical part of me says No, not trained or permitted to. The...emotional for lack of a better word, says Yes, deal with the fall out later.

But I certainly don't think that someone can be blamed for taking the first choice and not doing it. I know with how far I am from a hospital, amputating someone's leg would probably be just as likely to cause death as any situation that I will run into that would cause such a dillema.

**conalabu** · 07-06-07, 11:48 AM

This is bad karma. We all know better than to sit here and kibitz about other guys doing their job by reading a freaking media report. No medic or firemen is going to just "stand-by" and "let" someone die. To say that they did is utter and total bullshit. I have no passion for hose draggers, but come on. These guys are no less trained than LEO, in most cases. For EMS, most of the time they go through more training.

**Cst.SB** · 07-06-07, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by 213th

That is something that I truly don't think I can answer without being in their position. The logical part of me says No, not trained or permitted to. The...emotional for lack of a better word, says Yes, deal with the fall out later.

But I certainly don't think that someone can be blamed for taking the first choice and not doing it. I know with how far I am from a hospital, amputating someone's leg would probably be just as likely to cause death as any situation that I will run into that would cause such a dillema.

Just so we're clear, I'm not taking a piss out of you... k But, I'm going to push you a little on this one..

If the end result is going to be death, and you kill the guy while trying to save him, did you make things worse? Again, dead is dead.

Hopefully few of us have to make that decision in our careers. But here is the scary part, we all have to live with the decisions we make.

I rather have failed or fucked up while trying to do something rather than, having not done anything, or the thing that was needed to be done.

You're a military guy, and there is a reason for it, it's because you that probably can't sit in an assembly line. Cops, soldiers, fire fighters, paramedics, are cut from a similar cloth. We want to "serve". Sure we want the shits and giggles, but the bottom line is we all got into the work to help people, and letting someone die because it would be against "procedure" isn't something most of us, including you would probably do.

You're in a remote place, so cutting his leg off would have killed him, so that's out. The result is death, and dead is dead. So, the best option would have been to keep working on getting him out and protecting him from shock.

But if you were a peace keeping in Rwanda with a "don't shoot until you are shot at" policy, would you shoot the Tutsi rebels as the raped and murdered a Hutu woman in front of your eyes? Or would you let policy dictate how you're going to feel about yourself for the rest of your life.

Some Canadian soldiers let the above that happen - cause the just followed orders are fucked up and will be for the rest of their lives. (The General that lead them became suicidal and went missing days and was found sleeping on a park bench in Ottawa, because the whole mission was fucked) Later when they were interviewed, all of them said it wasn't worth it. Whatever the consequences were, nothing would have been worse than having to live with the guilt of not doing what needed to be done.

So, I was going to ask you once again if you would let someone die because of a procedure or policy, but forget it, I know you wouldn't.

**Willowdared** · 07-06-07, 02:53 PM

No one has mentioned....

Mike Barnett, 28, became stuck in neck-high water when he got his foot caught in a makeshift metal grille in a storm drain behind the tropical fish importers where he worked

What role did the grate play in this? Makeshift sounds jury rigged to me, was it installed by the city, or is there more to the story. What are the mechanics of his being stuck, and how did he end up back there anyway?

Seems like they were working in very bad conditions....deep, cold, and fast moving water...it's pretty easy to second guess from the comfort of a warm dry sofa.

And while the father gave permission for an amputation, what if his son vehemently protested? Can you cut off a leg, to save a life, if the person is saying no?

**Willowdared** · 07-06-07, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by 213th

That is something that I truly don't think I can answer without being in their position. The logical part of me says No, not trained or permitted to. The...emotional for lack of a better word, says Yes, deal with the fall out later.

But I certainly don't think that someone can be blamed for taking the first choice and not doing it. I know with how far I am from a hospital, amputating someone's leg would probably be just as likely to cause death as any situation that I will run into that would cause such a dillema.

Hey 213th, anyone die on the mud flats since you've been there?

There are some notorious mud flats on the Turnagan arm that have claimed a few lives in Alaska, it's been a challenge for rescuers.

The tide pulls all the way out, and people walk out, only to be stuck in mud resembling quick dry cement. This is way beyond quick sand conditions. They've even used high pressure fire hoses to try to blast people free before the tide comes back in and they drown.

Someone died each of the two summers I was there.