Do red light cameras work too well?

**Star Man** · 03-21-08, 03:24 AM

We just got some in the area I live, and I DO NOT like the idea of automatic cameras dishing out tickets. I fear the photo radar is next. I know a former Crime Scene tech in Arizona (I belive is where she worked) that was clocked like 9 or 10 over in her company fully marked vehicle on her way to a call who had to dish out the cash for the speed cite. There is no officer discretion with these things.

Story below:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23710970

**Just KC** · 03-21-08, 04:00 AM

We have them here. Easy money for the city/county.

**Standard Dave** · 03-21-08, 08:43 AM

In the UK we have automated enforcement for speeding, red lights, bus and tram lanes, no parking/ waiting on red routes in London, congestion charging and possibly others.
It is easy for admin staff to enforce and a self sustaining industry in its own right here the money rasied is used to pay for the admin and equipment for the schemes.
This may well be the future for other countries, it has however lead to the almost total loss of Traffic/ Road policing many of these officers now have other duties including emergency response, firearms response and planned operations so most are not full time traffic.

**Ender** · 03-21-08, 08:58 AM

I don't like the idea of red light cameras one bit, for a myriad of reasons.

I've also heard (so take it with a grain of salt), that the company that makes the red light cameras gets a nice percentage of the revenue generated from them. Gee whiz, that seems like a great idea.

**cajunguy** · 03-21-08, 09:48 AM

The company our city just started using (Redflex), is based in AUSTRALIA! Not even an American corporation. Their "local" headquarters is in Arizona.

They split the revenue something like 60/40 with the city, with Redflex keeping the 60%.

There has been (and continues to be) tons of contraversy over the constitutional and legal aspects of these systems since their inception here back in September of '07.

We also have "speed vans" (from the same company), and they set up in different areas of the city. The van's system is supposedly automated, and they snap your picture from the front and your license plate from the rear, then they MAIL you a citation.

In Louisiana, our state Supreme Court has previously ruled that the Police cannot take your picture and mail you a cite. So how is it legal for these people do it if Law Enforcement can't?

The red light cameras are also speed cameras, so even if you don't get caught cruising through a red light, they can still getcha if you are over the speed limit going through the intersection on the green light.

During Mardi Gras, our motor squad was doing escorts, and one of the guys had one particular intersection locked up (that has one of these cameras) as we were coming through against the red light, I got "the flash" as I went through it (at about 10-15 MPH - it was a slow escort - parade floats). Ummmm, excuse me folks, but I always thought that when an Officer has control of the intersection, the traffic signals are secondary to that officer. (You must obey the directions of the officer.)

So far I haven't heard anything from it. Yet!

.

**LitchRes** · 03-21-08, 10:50 AM

Personally I think they are bullshit...they take away all discretion

**lewisipso** · 03-21-08, 11:28 PM

Wouldn't know. We have them in our local area for a while but they're not hooked up. They look pretty though.

**bird1** · 03-21-08, 11:42 PM

Here they're popping up all over the place. City is raking in alot of $$$

**Just KC** · 03-22-08, 01:25 AM

We use RedFlex also. We have a team that is in charge of reviewing all the tapes and getting the cites sent out. They have to be reviewed and stamped within 15 hours of violation (i think that is the time-frame).....

**PapaBear** · 03-22-08, 08:19 AM

Three years ago, my wife, on her way to radiation treatments, rolled a red light while making a right hand turn. Her speed was clocked at "15 MPH". Her photo was taken and we received a letter to pay the fine of $360.oo. I wrote a letter to the court for her and they reduced the fine to $150.00 and let her attend traffic school. She was so embarassed! You should see her stop now...it will make you sick.

**Norm357** · 03-22-08, 01:56 PM

Regarding red light cameras, how do you face your accuser in court if you decide to fight the ticket?

**cajunguy** · 03-22-08, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by Norm357

Regarding red light cameras, how do you face your accuser in court if you decide to fight the ticket?

That's exactly one of the points the locals are bringing up. They are saying that the way the Redflex system is set up, you're guilty, and you must prove your innocence.

And your "accuser" is a computer and a camera.

Here, if you want to protest the cite, you must deposit $30.00 before they'll even talk to you. If you win (not likely), you get the 30 back, but if you lose, you lose the 30, PLUS pay the fine.

Constitutional? Many people don't think it is.

.

**Xiphos** · 03-22-08, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by Norm357

Regarding red light cameras, how do you face your accuser in court if you decide to fight the ticket?

My state did a "pilot" of the photo red light system and my jurisdiction was one of those participating. We had a unit of retired cops sworn in as "special police." They reviewed the photos and sent the fines out. If you contested the ticket one of them would show up in court with the photos and calibrations etc. The only way you could get out of it was if you weren't driving. Since they sent the ticket to the registered owner of the vehicle you had to prove to the judge you weren't the one operating the car.

I hate the things and was glad when the pilot expired but the legislature recently re-approved them for the whole state. It's only a matter of time now.....

**Norm357** · 03-22-08, 02:36 PM

My state did a "pilot" of the photo red light system and my jurisdiction was one of those participating. We had a unit of retired cops sworn in as "special police." They reviewed the photos and sent the fines out. If you contested the ticket one of them would show up in court with the photos and calibrations etc. The only way you could get out of it was if you weren't driving. Since they sent the ticket to the registered owner of the vehicle you had to prove to the judge you weren't the one operating the car.

That is a good way to do it, but what about agencies that can't or won't fund such a program?

**TXCharlie** · 03-22-08, 02:38 PM

I'm told that most of the cameras in Texas are treated civilly. That's how they get around those pesky constitutional issues.

They don't need to prove a thing to get a Civil court to uphold the fine. It's your word against a photo. Guess which carries more weight. On the upside, I'm not sure how they would collect on someone who flat refused to pay, except through leins, bad credit reports, and all that stuff.

Maybe some Texas LEO's can explain that part, because I've heard conflicting information.

**cajunguy** · 03-22-08, 02:55 PM

Here they declare it a "civil" fine. You don't get to go to court to protest the cite.

You must appear in front of an "adjudicator" who makes the final determination on your guilt or innocence. Who are the "adjudicators"? Employees of Redflex! And who has a vested (spelled "money") interest in the outcome? Redflex! There is almost no way to beat 'em. As stated, you're guilty. Period!

Did anyone say "legalized extortion"?

.

**Xiphos** · 03-22-08, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Norm357

That is a good way to do it, but what about agencies that can't or won't fund such a program?

I think the whole thing sucks. The public needs to boot out politicians who approve this crap and elect the ones who will get rid of it.

**Five-0** · 03-22-08, 03:02 PM

Some of the public likes to complain about a cop giving them a citation. This will let them know how bad it can get when we loose our discretion. There is no due process, and law enforcement should not ever be about revenue generation.

**TXCharlie** · 03-22-08, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by cajunguy

Here they declare it a "civil" fine. You don't get to go to court to protest the cite.

You must appear in front of an "adjudicator" who makes the final determination on your guilt or innocence. Who are the "adjudicators"? Employees of Redflex! And who has a vested (spelled "money") interest in the outcome? Redflex! There is almost no way to beat 'em. As stated, you're guilty. Period!

Did anyone say "legalized extortion"?

.

What happens if you simply refuse to pay the fine in Louisiana? Do they send someone out to break your kneecaps, take your DL away, or file criminal charges then?

**cajunguy** · 03-22-08, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by TXCharlie

What happens if you simply refuse to pay the fine in Louisiana? Do they send someone out to break your kneecaps, take your DL away, or file criminal charges then?

Supposedly, they turn you over to a collection agancy (PLUS pay a "late fee") if they collect. And if they don't collect, then they say they will screw up your credit rating for not paying the fine.

Some folks say "just refuse to pay it." Their argument is that it would be the same as receiving something in the mail you didn't order. If you didn't order it, you aren't legally required to pay for it.

In reality, I haven't heard if anyone has gotten away with this approach. So I don't really have any answer on that.

A few of our deputies have gotten cites while on duty. The cites are mailed to the department (since the car is registered to the department), and if it is determined that you were on an emergency run at the time, the department sends it back to Redflex with that explanation. If you weren't "running hot" and just cruising around, then the department hands it over to the deputy with instructions to pay it.

I don't know of any deputies who have refused to pay. I would imagine if they would, then they would be in hot water with the department for "refusing to obey".

.