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  1. #1
    TXCharlie's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Thousands sign petition to make Texas an open-carry state

    I have mixed feelings about carrying openly myself, but I think the option to do that is a constitutional right - I only have one thing to say to the anti-gunners going balistic over this:

    WHAT PART OF "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

    In addition to the petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/texasoc/petition.html
    There is a poll at http://cbs11tv.com/ktxa - So far 79% in favor of open carry.


    http://www.star-telegram.com/804/story/715977.html

    By ANNA M. TINSLEY
    atinsley@star-telegram.com


    Related Content



    Duane Suddeth shows his .40-caliber Glock 23 semiautomatic
    pistol holstered on his hip in his front yard in Bedford. Suddeth
    is among a group of residents who have joined a growing nationwide
    "open-carry" movement. STAR-TELEGRAM/LAURIE L. WARD

    If Duane Suddeth had his way, he could strap on a handgun and wear it ó anytime, anywhere ó without concealing it.
    That day has not come in Texas, but the 42-year-old Bedford man is among thousands hoping it is on its way.

    "This is the publicís right," Suddeth said. "Whether they choose to exercise that or not is up to them."
    Texas, despite its independence and frontier reputation, is one of only six states where handguns cannot ó in some form ó legally be worn in plain view.

    Suddeth is among a group of residents wanting to change that who have joined a growing nationwide "open-carry" movement.

    Some say it harks back to constitutional rights and frontier days when settlers carried their weapons where everyone could see them.

    "It was considered part of everyday life back then," said John Pierce, co-founder of www.OpenCarry.org, a champion of the effort. "The concealed-carry part was what was looked at with disdain."

    In Texas, where residents may carry concealed handguns if they have a permit, more than 3,500 people have signed an online petition asking Gov. Rick Perry and the Legislature to make Texas an open-carry state.
    "Cowboys and Indians, and the Alamo ó and many just assumed that Texas was an open-carry state," wrote Gary Williams, one of many Texans advocating for gun law change. "Clearly, there are some changes that need to be made."

    Gun safety advocates arenít so sure.

    "What are they trying to do? Go back to Texas gunslinger days?" asked Richard Leal, a board member of the Houston-based Texans for Gun Safety. "Things are bad enough as it is, with people 18 and older being authorized to carry guns."

    The open-carry effort
    Many states such as Texas do have concealed handgun rules and permits in place.

    But many also have open-carry rules, unlike Texas, along with New York, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Florida, South Carolina and Washington, D.C., according to OpenCarry.org.

    Dozens of states either issue licenses for open carry or allow the practice without any license, according to the Web site.

    "The concealed-carry movement that swept the country in past decades has been a great benefit to law-abiding citizens to be able to protect themselves in an uncertain world," Pierce said. "But we are trying to re-educate people that open carry is . . . a basic gun right."

    The Texas Citizens Defense League, of which Williams and Suddeth are members, is trying to get the word out.

    Part of that is the petition that asks that all people who may legally buy a handgun also be allowed to carry it openly, except in places prohibited by law.

    "I canít count the times I have been in some discussion about open carry in some Northern state . . . and somebody says, 'Hey, this is not . . . Texas,í " said Mike Stollenwerk, co-founder of OpenCarry.org.
    "And I respond, 'Thankfully you are correct, as open carry is banned in Texas.í "

    Texas reaction
    Any change to the law would come from the Texas Legislature, which is why the petition is to lawmakers and Perry.

    The issue is not on the governorís plate yet, a spokeswoman said.
    "The governor is very supportive of conceal and carry laws," said Kristi Piferrer, a Perry spokeswoman. "Expanding that to open carry probably will take a lot of public deliberation and legislative guidance."

    Some law enforcers say they would be leery of an open-carry policy in Texas.

    "I really think it would cause a lot of uneasiness in the community, with people seeing so many guns," Tarrant County Constable Sergio DeLeon said. "It could create more problems than it would solve."

    Land Commissioner Jerry Patterson, who as a state senator helped make concealed-carry law in 1995, said he doesnít believe that open carry would create any problems.

    While he never considered proposing an open-carry measure, Patterson said he has seen the practice in Arizona.

    "I went into the bank, and a guy walked in with a .45 in his back pocket," he said. "I thought, 'Well, thatís unusual.í "

    "You never know"
    Suddeth, an IT professional who does some travel for work, said he would like to openly carry a loaded handgun. In the past year, Suddeth said there was an elderly woman attacked, cars broken into, a home broken into and several assaults in his Bedford neighborhood.
    "You never know when crime is going to happen," he said. "I think eventually we will see open carry in Texas.

    "Eventually, it will happen."

    Online: www.petitiononline.com/texasoc/petition.html

    Open-carry states Texas is one of six states that either do not allow or highly restrict the open carrying of handguns in public. The others are New York, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Florida and South Carolina, as well as Washington, D.C., according to OpenCarry.org.

    More than a dozen states require a license for open carry, from Utah to Mississippi to Massachusetts. Eleven more, from Vermont to Arizona, allow it but donít require licenses. Still more generally permit it but offer various restrictions. And two states, California and Illinois, allow loaded handguns to be carried in rural areas, according to the Web site.

    "OpenCarry.org believes that 'a right unexercised is a right lost,í and increasingly gun owners are agreeing," according to the Web site. "Itís time gun carry comes out of the closet in America."
    Source: www.OpenCarry.org

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    Xiphos's Avatar
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    I think conceal carry is a more tactically sound decision. However I think open carry can do a lot to demystify gun carry in the public. I hope they are successfull!
    Pleasing nobody, one person at a time.

    That which does not kill me, better start fucking running.

    If I lived every day like it was my last, the body count would be staggering.

    I intend to go in harm's way. -John Paul Jones

    Hunt the wolf, and bring light to the dark places that others fear to go. LT COL Dave Grossman

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    TXCharlie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiphos View Post
    I think conceal carry is a more tactically sound decision. However I think open carry can do a lot to demystify gun carry in the public. I hope they are successfull!
    That's exactly why I have mixed feelings... I think open carry removes the advantage of surprise that you have with concealed carry.

    But on the other hand, I think it'd also be a deterrent to robberies, for example, if a few customers and employees can be seen carrying openly.

    Open carry also cuts the draw time in half, and reduces the chances that the gun will be caught on clothing - so tactically it could be a wash.

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    Xiphos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TXCharlie View Post
    That's exactly why I have mixed feelings... I think open carry removes the advantage of surprise that you have with concealed carry.

    But on the other hand, I think it'd also be a deterrent to robberies, for example, if a few customers and employees can be seen carrying openly.

    Open carry also cuts the draw time in half, and reduces the chances that the gun will be caught on clothing - so tactically it could be a wash.
    The problem with open carry is how many are using holsters with only tension screws for retention? If you carry open you should have retention similar to on duty stuff. Don't make it easy for the guy behind you in line to snatch it.
    Pleasing nobody, one person at a time.

    That which does not kill me, better start fucking running.

    If I lived every day like it was my last, the body count would be staggering.

    I intend to go in harm's way. -John Paul Jones

    Hunt the wolf, and bring light to the dark places that others fear to go. LT COL Dave Grossman

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    RoJo's Avatar
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    I agree, the Constitutional Right to carry for law abiding citizens should be protected. Of course there will always be that question of abuse but I feel the need to protect the right to carry outweighs the potential negatives.
    Bravery is the capacity to perform properly even when scared half to death.

    Omar Bradley





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    The open carry movement is alive and well in Washington State....and I too have mixed emotions. In the end, I think that society has a duty to protect itself from ALL forms of attack. If it will not (see Europe) then it's days are numbered.
    If it denies it's citizens the right to self defense, then the citizen's days are numbered.


    Car 4
    I would like my country back. I used to believe that one man could never destroy this country. Not so sure anymore!

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    TXCharlie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiphos View Post
    The problem with open carry is how many are using holsters with only tension screws for retention? If you carry open you should have retention similar to on duty stuff. Don't make it easy for the guy behind you in line to snatch it.
    I use a Blackhawk Serpa level II in our shooting matches - It has a very secure lock that's very natural to release if you press it first, but if you try to pull the gun out before pressing the release, it's very hard to unlock it.

    But I agree, a lot of people are going to use Kydex holsters with friction retention, or even worse, those horrible soft nylon one-size-fits-none jobs with no security at all - You can knock the gun out of those things just by squatting down.

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    There is a HUGE open carry movement in Washington State, where it is presently legal already.

    If you visit the open carry forums, Washington is one of the busier sections.

    I find it tactically unsound, but see it as a constitutional right. I figure when the bad guy shoots the person carrying openly first, it gives me time to get a bead on him.

    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
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    Ok.. dont hate me.. but Im from NYC. We deal with different animals. Lets just say, I can take a look around me, and see about 70% of the people out there, that I would definetely not want carrying.. whether its concealed or open. Imagine 13 million residents, with about half carrying. If I came up on a shooting scene, and I see a bunch of people with holsters on, Im gonna wonder who shot who, or who is about to shoot me. I rather have the knowledge that only Law Enforcement is allow to carry, and everyone else, is a bad guy. Makes it a much quicker shoot or dont shoot decision for the NYPD.

    Again.. being a det. from NYC, we deal with a totally different atmosphere than Texas.

    Imagine giving these mutts the right to carry...

    Even though we want responsible citizens to be able to excercise their full rights under the constitution, the "carry" law has to apply equitably, and that means we cant discriminate against anyone who doesnt have a criminal record, including gang members who havent been arrested yet.
    "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." -- George Orwell

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    MacLean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dustoff262 View Post
    Ok.. dont hate me.. but Im from NYC. We deal with different animals. Lets just say, I can take a look around me, and see about 70% of the people out there, that I would definetely not want carrying.. whether its concealed or open. Imagine 13 million residents, with about half carrying. If I came up on a shooting scene, and I see a bunch of people with holsters on, Im gonna wonder who shot who, or who is about to shoot me. I rather have the knowledge that only Law Enforcement is allow to carry, and everyone else, is a bad guy. Makes it a much quicker shoot or dont shoot decision for the NYPD.

    Again.. being a det. from NYC, we deal with a totally different atmosphere than Texas.

    Imagine giving these mutts the right to carry...
    You need to get out to other states more.

    We deal with the same animals you do, they just don't have New York accents.

    Besides, these aren't the people who are going to exercise their rights.

    If Heller goes right, you're going to have to learn to revise your shoot don't shoot policy - New York's gun ban will go down the toilet with DC's.

    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



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    TXCharlie's Avatar
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    Shouldn't be too long before Heller is decided - Some court observers are predicting as early as July 1st, but I think they should unveil it on July 4th - It would be fitting.

    As for criminals, it is well-established that rights can be taken away for cause - even the most basic right to life, but there MUST be just cause under the constitutin to take rights away, due to THAT individual's action.

    Sorry, but if my neighbor snaps and kills 20 people, that should have no effect on my rights, except for my right to blow his ass away while he's doing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TXCharlie View Post
    Shouldn't be too long before Heller is decided - Some court observers are predicting as early as July 1st, but I think they should unveil it on July 4th - It would be fitting.

    As for criminals, it is well-established that rights can be taken away for cause - even the most basic right to life, but there MUST be just cause under the constitutin to take rights away, due to THAT individual's action.

    Sorry, but if my neighbor snaps and kills 20 people, that should have no effect on my rights, except for my right to blow his ass away while he's doing it.
    Not sure what you are reading Chuck, but they have to do it by this Friday. The session is over.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



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    NYs Gun ban wont go down the toilet because as long as the crime numbers are fudged, and the Mayor and City Council say NY is the safest big city around, then the liberals wont want to give guns to the average citizen. We really dont have a total ban, just that the city council makes it virtually impossible to carry. If you are an owner of a small business, and can prove the need to carry, you are granted after a full vetting process. (again.. its probable, but almost impossible).

    I have been to other states, on vacation, for work related courses, or while I was stationed in California, Washington, Florida and Hawaii. There is nothing that compares to the congestion, the mass transit, the housing projects, and the multilayered bad neighborhoods that we have to patrol in nyc. Los Angeles comes in second, but no where near the amount of over crowding we have in NYC. We have 35,000 cops, and thousands of other law enforcement officers through out the city working for different state and federal agencies. The NYPD was once considered the 6th largest armed force in comparison to other countries.

    With those numbers, we dont need another 6 million residents carrying guns on the streets. It wouldnt work here. It may work in Texas, but definetely not here.

    There have been Columbine style shootings through out the country, but you havent heard of it happening here in NYC. One major factor is because the kids dont have ready access to daddy's gun collection, because daddy cant get a gun legally. Its a totally different culture here in NYC. We are a major port of entry for the world. Most immigrants from abroad will enter through one of our major airports. I cant imagine giving those people the right to carry, when they cant even speak english. As it is, I dont know how in the world they get a driver's license and yet still cant determine which side of the road to drive on.

    Sorry to disagree with your point of view. Im only thinking of how that law pertains to NYC. Texas is a different world... a different culture. Come out to NYC and apply for a ride along program here. I trust after one nite patrolling in the Bronx or in Harlem, you would be glad that NYers dont have the right to carry. NYC is a different world brother, a totally different world.

    By the way, NYC is a cop hating city, but thats for a different thread altogether.
    "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." -- George Orwell

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    No disrespect taken or intended, but I still disagree with you

    Perhaps it would be a good debate for another thread.

    (and I don't limit the subject to Texas - Washington has been doing it since 1961)
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



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    Dustoff262's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    No disrespect taken or intended, but I still disagree with you

    Perhaps it would be a good debate for another thread.

    (and I don't limit the subject to Texas - Washington has been doing it since 1961)
    none taken.

    Thats why I am limiting my opinion to NYC. Texas and Washington state are different situations. For instance, in Texas i believe there is a video of a citizen that pulled his licensed weapon out on a perp that was assaulting a police officer. That wouldnt happen here in NYC. Here, a cop that was driving in his scooter was shot by a sniper. Another cop was killed when a bucket of plaster was tossed from a rooftop onto his head. Cops that have to collar up with a large crowd gathering are usually hit with bricks and bottles. Thats why I wouldnt trust any NYC resident with a right to carry.

    Imagine a well intentioned citizen trying to assist an officer in the middle of a riot, lets off a few rounds and kills a child, or even the officer he was trying to help. Its not worth it here in NYC. This town is too liberal to manage. Chicago and Detroit would be two other cities that the right to carry law would pose a nightmare for Law Enforcement.

    I hope Texas and Washington get it approved. I would like to see how life would be in these two states, 5 yrs from now. Maybe by the time I retire, this can help me decide if I want to live among people who would possibly more heavily armed than I am. LOL.
    "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." -- George Orwell

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    MacLean's Avatar
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    You misunderstood - it already is legal in Washington. Has been forever.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



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    TXCharlie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    Not sure what you are reading Chuck, but they have to do it by this Friday. The session is over.

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    TXCharlie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    You misunderstood - it already is legal in Washington. Has been forever.
    And in Vermont, which everyone knows is a hotbed of crime, you don't need a permit to carry at all - even visitors. Not sure about open carry, but concealed carry, at least.

    But last I heard they had a CHL bill pending. That's mainly so they can carry in other states, I'm sure - the main reason wasn't because unlicensed carry was causing problems, since criminals don't bother getting (or can't get) licenses anyway, for the most part.

    Licenses are not a deterrent to anything, except maybe unfounded brandishing and making law-abiding citizens disarm themselves unnecessarily in schools and bars even if they're eating not drinking, out of fear as loosing their license - Essentially keeping honest people honest, but with zero effect on people carrying illegally in the first place, who WILL carry in bars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiphos View Post
    The problem with open carry is how many are using holsters with only tension screws for retention? If you carry open you should have retention similar to on duty stuff. Don't make it easy for the guy behind you in line to snatch it.

    I was thinking the exact same thing. Thefts of firearms may go up from distracted owners getting them snatched out of the holsters. I know my off duty holster is nothing like my on duty one in terms of retention qualities.
    ...........................................

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    Quote Originally Posted by TXCharlie View Post
    And in Vermont, which everyone knows is a hotbed of crime, you don't need a permit to carry at all - even visitors. Not sure about open carry, but concealed carry, at least.

    But last I heard they had a CHL bill pending. That's mainly so they can carry in other states, I'm sure - the main reason wasn't because unlicensed carry was causing problems, since criminals don't bother getting (or can't get) licenses anyway, for the most part.

    Licenses are not a deterrent to anything, except maybe unfounded brandishing and making law-abiding citizens disarm themselves unnecessarily in schools and bars even if they're eating not drinking, out of fear as loosing their license - Essentially keeping honest people honest, but with zero effect on people carrying illegally in the first place, who WILL carry in bars.

    I agree, thugs are thugs anywhere you go. I am sure those bangers in NYC could care less about any law much less a gun law; Their going to carry anyway. About two weeks ago we had a shooting involving an eight year old girl. When the shooter was caught (a 20 yo banger), he gave an interview to the news. He said he was approached by another banger who pulled a gun on him. He said he was not just going to let the guy shoot him so he pulled out his weapon (he was in a car), and fired first, hitting the little girl in the park. The laws are in place to keep the law abiding citizens in line. The bad guys dont care.
    Bravery is the capacity to perform properly even when scared half to death.

    Omar Bradley





 

 
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