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  1. #1
    Dustoff262's Avatar
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    A New Cold War Rising?


    Western nations warn Russia to `change course'
    By JIM HEINTZ, Associated Press Writer
    21 minutes ago

    Western leaders warned the Kremlin on Wednesday to "change course," hoping to keep the conflict from growing into a new Cold War after tensions broadened to imperil a key nuclear pact and threaten U.S. meat and poultry trade with Russia.

    Moscow said it was NATO expansion and Western support for Georgia that was causing the new East-West divisions, and Prime Minister Vladimir Putin lashed out at the United States for using military ships to deliver humanitarian aid to Georgia.

    Meanwhile, Georgia slashed its embassy staff in Moscow to protest Russia's recognition of the two separatist enclaves that were the flashpoint for the five-day war between the two nations earlier this month.

    The tensions have spread to the Black Sea, which Russia shares unhappily with three nations that belong to NATO and two others that desperately want to, Ukraine and Georgia. Some Ukrainians fear Moscow might set its sights on their nation next.

    In moves evocative of Cold War cat-and-mouse games, a U.S. military ship carrying humanitarian aid docked at a southern Georgian port, and Russia sent a missile cruiser and two other ships to a port farther north in a show of force.

    The maneuvering came a day after Russian President Dmitry Medvedev had said his nation was "not afraid of anything, including the prospect of a Cold War." For the two superpowers of the first Cold War, the United States and Russia, repercussions from this new conflict could be widespread.

    Russia's agriculture minister said Moscow could cut poultry and pork import quotas by hundreds of thousands of tons, hitting American producers hard and thereby raising prices for American shoppers.

    Russians sometimes refer to American poultry imports as "Bush's legs," a reference to the frozen chicken shipped to Russia amid economic troubles following the 1991 Soviet collapse, during George H.W. Bush's presidency.

    And a key civil nuclear agreement between Moscow and Washington appears likely to be shelved until next year at the earliest.

    On the diplomatic front, the West's denunciations of Russia grew louder.

    Britain's top diplomat equated Moscow's offensive in Georgia with the Soviet tanks that invaded Czechoslovakia to crush the Prague Spring democratic reforms in 1968, and demanded Russia "change course."

    "The sight of Russian tanks in a neighboring country on the 40th anniversary of the crushing of the Prague Spring has shown that the temptations of power politics remain," Foreign Secretary David Miliband said.

    Western leaders have accused Russia of using inappropriate force when it sent tanks and troops into Georgia earlier this month. The Russian move followed a Georgian crackdown on the pro-Russian South Ossetia.

    Many of the Russian forces that drove deep into Georgia after fighting broke out Aug. 7 have pulled back, but hundreds are estimated to still be manning checkpoints that Russia calls "security zones" inside Georgia proper.

    German Chancellor Angela Merkel pressed Russian President Dmitry Medvedev in a phone call to immediately fulfill the EU-brokered cease-fire by pulling all troops out of Georgia.

    The Kremlin rejected Western criticism, and Tuesday even suggested the conflict could spread. It starkly warned another former Soviet republic, tiny Moldova, that aggression against a breakaway region there could provoke a military response.
    French President Nicolas Sarkozy accused Russia of trying to redraw the borders of Georgia. His foreign minister went further, suggesting Russia had engaged in "ethnic cleansing" in South Ossetia, one of the two Georgian rebel territories.

    And the seven nations that along with Russia make up the G-8 issued a statement that underlined Russia's growing estrangement from the West.

    The seven United States, Britain, France, Canada, Germany, Japan and Italy said Russia's decision to recognize South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent countries violated the Georgia's territorial integrity.

    Two weeks ago, officials had told The Associated Press that the G-7 were weighing whether to effectively disband what is known as the G-8 by throwing Moscow out.

    Georgia's prime minister put damage from the Russian war at about $1 billion but said it did not fundamentally undermine the Georgian economy. Georgia, which has a national budget of about $3 billion, hopes for substantial Western aid to recover.

    The United Nations has estimated nearly 160,000 people had to flee their homes, but hundreds have returned to Georgian cities like Gori in the past week.

    In the Georgian capital of Tbilisi, boxes of aid were sorted, stacked and loaded onto trucks Wednesday for some of the tens of thousands of people still displaced by the fighting. Some boxes were stamped "USAID from the American People."

    In the Black Sea, the U.S. Coast Guard cutter Dallas, carrying 34 tons of humanitarian aid, docked in Batumi. The missile destroyer USS McFaul was there earlier this week delivering aid, and the U.S. planned to leave it in the Black Sea for now.

    A spokesman for Putin, quoted by Interfax news agency, observed: "Military ships are hardly a common way to deliver such aid."

    The U.S. has used military ships to deliver humanitarian aid before, including in the aftermath of the 2004 Asian tsunami.

    The U.S. Embassy in Georgia had earlier said the Dallas was headed to the port city of Poti but then retracted the statement. A Georgian official said the port in Poti could have been mined by Russian forces.

    Poti's port reportedly suffered heavy damage from the Russian military. In addition, Russian troops have established checkpoints on the northern approach to the city, and a U.S. ship docking there could have been seen as a direct challenge.

    Meanwhile, the Russian missile cruiser Moskva and two smaller missile boats anchored at the port in Sukhumi, the capital of Abkhazia, some 180 miles north of Batumi. The Russian Navy says the ships will be involved in peacekeeping operations.

    Russian Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn warned that NATO has already exhausted the number of forces it can have in the Black Sea, according to international agreements, and warned Western nations against sending more ships.

    "Can NATO which is not a state located in the Black Sea continuously increase its group of forces and systems there? It turns out that it cannot," Nogovitsyn was quoted as saying Wednesday by Interfax.
    "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." -- George Orwell

  2. #2
    Dustoff262's Avatar
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    I was in the Navy as a corpsman for the Marines in the early 80s till 94. There have been many tense moments including collisions at sea, civilian planes being shot down or shot at, and proxy wars. Those would be the good old days compared to what we are hearing and seeing from Russia now a days. Russia is itching for a direct conflict with the west, and they do not engage in hyperbolie. They mean exactly what they say.

    The biggest issue is that they are a huge oil producing country that is not part of OPEC. They can reek havoc on the oil markets which in turn can negatively effect world economies. They are a bigger threat than ever, and Putin is the kind of madman that has not been seen since Lennin. Its just a matter of time. And OBAMA isnt prepared to put him in check. Russia is making their moves now, because Bush doesnt have enough time in his presidency to push Russia back, and Russia is betting on Obama the Speech maker to be the next POTUS.

    I hope the rest of the world stands up united against this new menace.
    "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." -- George Orwell

  3. #3
    121Traffic's Avatar
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    I'm not extremely educated on the happenings over there, but I intend to remedy that soon. For now though, this just gives me the heebie jeebies.
    "If anything worthwhile comes of this tragedy, it should be the realization by every citizen that often the only thing that stands between them and losing everything they hold dear... is the man wearing a badge." -- Ronald Reagan, in the wake of the deaths of 4 CHP troopers in the Newhall Incident, 1970

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    My thoughts on the matter are we're screwed. We don't have the military to fight them at the present moment, since the reduction in force that happend since the "end" of the first Cold War. Our best bet is to (ugh) make friends with China. They are a direct threat to the Russians and a fight that even they don't want, I believe.

    OTOH, I think the Russians want to START WW3 so who knows what their crazy asses will do.
    Are you a 3%er? If you aren't, you should be.

  5. #5
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    Putin is a KGB company man, which should explain it all.
    "never bring paws to a gunfight" - Jenna

  6. #6
    MacLean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonsterMash View Post
    My thoughts on the matter are we're screwed. We don't have the military to fight them at the present moment, since the reduction in force that happend since the "end" of the first Cold War. Our best bet is to (ugh) make friends with China. They are a direct threat to the Russians and a fight that even they don't want, I believe.

    OTOH, I think the Russians want to START WW3 so who knows what their crazy asses will do.
    The Russians don't have the military either, and one thing we have always had in common is the desire to avoid killing our children.

    Russians are by and large not as different from Americans as we cold war generation were led to believe. I have many Russian friends, and it was an eye opener to talk with them frankly about the cold war.

    What you are seeing is a country, once a world power, worried about losing their relevance.

    We taught them how to saber rattle, and now we are watching them do it.

    I'm not excited yet, and frankly would rather we try a different tactic. Invite Russia to join NATO.

    Such an alliance would change the world and expose even more Russians to the every day freedoms and luxuries we take for granted.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  7. #7
    Five-0's Avatar
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    In a conventional war we would destroy Russia. Neither Russia nor China have the spare parts to go toe to toe with us. The communist army mantra has always been quantity over quality. The U.S. tends to work on a quality over quantity premise. We are not as dependant on numbers as they are. We are much more mobile to boot. Unconvential war is a loose loose for everyone.

    To put it in perspective, if we go to war with either country I am joining the armed forces the day war is declared. I'm more than willing to put my a$$ behind the words I have just typed.

    Meanwhile, fishing in Russia:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." -- Frederic Bastiat

    "Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter." Ernest Hemingway

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  8. #8
    MacLean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Five-0 View Post
    In a conventional war we would destroy Russia. Neither Russia nor China have the spare parts to go toe to toe with us. The communist army mantra has always been quantity over quality. The U.S. tends to work on a quality over quantity premise. We are not as dependant on numbers as they are. We are much more mobile to boot. Unconvential war is a loose loose for everyone.

    To put it in perspective, if we go to war with either country I am joining the armed forces the day war is declared. I'm more than willing to put my a$$ behind the words I have just typed.
    I already have, and I agree with your assessment.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  9. #9
    Dustoff262's Avatar
    Dustoff262 is offline Retirement date: December 29, 2019
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    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    The Russians don't have the military either, and one thing we have always had in common is the desire to avoid killing our children.

    Russians are by and large not as different from Americans as we cold war generation were led to believe. I have many Russian friends, and it was an eye opener to talk with them frankly about the cold war.

    What you are seeing is a country, once a world power, worried about losing their relevance.

    We taught them how to saber rattle, and now we are watching them do it.

    I'm not excited yet, and frankly would rather we try a different tactic. Invite Russia to join NATO.

    Such an alliance would change the world and expose even more Russians to the every day freedoms and luxuries we take for granted.
    "Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto."
    Thomas Jefferson
    "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." -- George Orwell

  10. #10
    MacLean's Avatar
    MacLean is offline O/R Gun mod
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dustoff262 View Post
    "Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto."
    Thomas Jefferson
    I like Jefferson, but that statement of his belied his actions.

    He was among the first to ally us - to France.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



 

 

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