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  1. #1
    keith720's Avatar
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    He didn't get it his way!

    1 dead, one injured in Miami Burger King shooting

    By ROBERT SAMUELS AND JENNIFER LEBOVICH

    jlebovich@MiamiHerald.com

    One man was killed and another seriously wounded in a shootout inside a Miami Burger King on Tuesday, officials said.
    Police said a man wearing a ski mask walked into the store at Biscayne Boulevard and 54th Street and demanded money from a clerk.
    A customer, who has a concealed weapons permit, pulled a gun, said Officer Jeff Giordano, a Miami police spokesman.
    The customer and robber exchanged fire.
    The robber was shot dead at the scene.
    The customer, who had several gunshot wounds, was taken to Ryder Trauma Center in serious but stable condition, said Lt. Ignatius Carroll, a Miami Fire Rescue spokesman.
    At about 4 p.m., officials got several 911 calls reporting people shot inside the Burger King.
    For the morning will come. Brightly will it shine on the brave and true, kindly upon all who suffer for the cause, glorious upon the tombs of heroes. Thus will shine the dawn.

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  2. #2
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    Concealed Pistol Licensee wins out over dirtbag, saves dozens in Burger King robbery.

    (Sorry, had to fix that headline.)
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  3. #3
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    Too bad next week's article will read something like,

    Dirtbag's Family Sues CPL Hero

    Yes, Johnny was a crack-dealing POS, who robbed fast-food joints on the weekend for extra money; but he was loved. He only robbed profitable businesses and he needed that money to give to his baby's momma for her heroin addiction. He was a good person, he has only been to prison for things he didn't do.


    -1 shitbag in the world. I hope the CPL has a speedy recovery.

    "Stupid should hurt."

  4. #4
    Retdetsgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    Concealed Pistol Licensee wins out over dirtbag, saves dozens in Burger King robbery.
    Maybe. But the odds are the guy would have taken the money and left with no one getting shot. The guy is in ICU because he might have saved Burger King a hundred bucks or so. Very few armed robbers shoot anyone unless they feel threatened. Yeah, sometimes they do, but my experience over the years that it was fairly rare if they got what they wanted.

    That's why employees are almost always told to just give the robber the money and don't resist. There's a reason for that.

    I don't have any sympathy for the dead bad guy, but it's a shame the citizen is in serious condition over it. I bet Burger King doesn't do squat for him either.
    When I used to be somebody (I'm center top)

    "A burning desire for social justice is never a substitute for knowing what you're talking about". -Thomas Sowell-

  5. #5
    MacLean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retdetsgt View Post
    Maybe. But the odds are the guy would have taken the money and left with no one getting shot.
    Sorry sir, but here is where you and I will disagree.

    I don't care what the odds say, and I don't care what the outcome might have been.

    Submission does not pay in the long run.

    I won't disagree with your cost/benefit analysis - I understand it very well. I even agree that companies train their employees not to fight because of the very same cost benefit analysis.

    I bet robberies of Burger King's fall off sharply for the next two weeks.

    The guy knew the risks when he strapped on his gun, and now he has to pay the piper - but he WON and the felon LOST and that word gets around over time.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  6. #6
    121Traffic's Avatar
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    Reps if I could, Mac.
    "If anything worthwhile comes of this tragedy, it should be the realization by every citizen that often the only thing that stands between them and losing everything they hold dear... is the man wearing a badge." -- Ronald Reagan, in the wake of the deaths of 4 CHP troopers in the Newhall Incident, 1970

    The opinions given in my posts DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "121Traffic" on O/R.

  7. #7
    lewisipso's Avatar
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    The guy knew the risks when he strapped on his gun, and now he has to pay the piper - but he WON and the felon LOST and that word gets around over time.
    Reps if I could, Mac.
    Done.

    Kudos to the guy for not just sitting on his ass and doing nothing. He may very well have saved the life of someone down the road when this guy became more brazen.
    Do not war for peace. If you must war, war for justice. For without justice there is no peace. -me

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    R.I.P. Arielle. 08/20/2010-09/16/2012


  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    Sorry sir, but here is where you and I will disagree.

    I don't care what the odds say, and I don't care what the outcome might have been.

    Submission does not pay in the long run.

    I won't disagree with your cost/benefit analysis - I understand it very well. I even agree that companies train their employees not to fight because of the very same cost benefit analysis.

    I bet robberies of Burger King's fall off sharply for the next two weeks.

    The guy knew the risks when he strapped on his gun, and now he has to pay the piper - but he WON and the felon LOST and that word gets around over time.
    Well said Mac.
    dlefdal said:
    Ummmm, what if I don't like thumbs in my butt?

  9. #9
    Retdetsgt's Avatar
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    Well, here in Portland, we have several armed robberies a day. A liberal estimate would be that a shooting takes place every year or so, probably less. The robber is after the money, not getting in a shootout with anyone. Invariably when it does happen, it's because he mets some serious resistance and ends up defending himself, not because he just decides to shoot people.

    Let's give the benefit of the doubt to the citizen and say he's a fairly good shot, but more than likely he's not going to be all that good, but we'll say he is. The gunman has probably shot a pistol less than a dozen times in his life and is unacquainted with a gun to say the least. That's why most use revolvers. Your experience may be different, but I've seen few armed robbers who knew much more than how to pull the trigger.

    In this case, the only people hit were the two guys with guns. That was little doubt more luck than anything else. When bullets start flying in a public place, everyone's at risk. Now if it were an empty convenience store , that would change things. But fast food places aren't generally very empty.

    I don't know the circumstances in this one, they say very little. Hopefully the citizen had the brains to position himself fewer people were at risk. But if some kid gets killed in a fast food joint because some citizen wants to play Wyatt Earp, I fail to see the gain. If someone wants to risk their lives saving Burger King some money, go for it. But I don't see the value in risking a lot of other peoples' lives, including kids for that. So I guess we do differ.

    I agree with you in principle that if EVERYBODY carried a gun, armed robberies would probably either cease to exist and when there was one, the gunmen would probably immediately start shooting anyone he thought might be a threat. But that's not the case and never will be.

    There are a lot of things I'm willing to die for, but unless I was on the job, someone else's few hundred bucks doesn't make that category. Especially if I'm putting innocent people in even more danger. Even if I was plain clothes, I'd weigh the possible consequences to others before I engaged. On duty, I'd take risks I wouldn't otherwise, but I still would put the safety of those around me first. I couldn't live with myself if some kid got killed because I thought I HAD to do something and made a dangerous situation deadly. But that's just me.
    When I used to be somebody (I'm center top)

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  10. #10
    Captain America's Avatar
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    As always Mac and Retdetsgt. you both make valid points for your side of the debate. As I'm sure all LEOs have done over the course of their careers , I've often ponder what I would do if I was caught in such a situation off duty. There are a lot of factors that would go into a decision to intercede. Am I with my family? Where are they in relation to me? Are there innocents in the background of the suspect? Are there innocents behind me in the line of fire? What am I armed with compared to what the suspect is armed with? Are there more than one known suspect? How about the possibility of unknown suspects? Where is the muzzle of the suspect's firearm pointed? If I shoot him could his weapon discharge by reflex, causing the action I'm seeking to prevent? Is someone in immediate deadly force jeopardy? Is it better to sit this one out and be a good witness? Would it be safer to confront the subject in the parking lot , thereby decreasing the danger to costumers? There are no clear cut answers. Lot of factors to consider for a 18 year police veteran who is under an obligation to act, if possible. What about for a civilian with no experience and a lot less training. If I were a civilian in that position, only one thing would matter to me. Will my actions prevent someone from getting seriously injured or killed? Nothing else is worth the risk. I'll give the citizen the benefit of the doubt here until proved otherwise, maybe he felt someone was in jeopardy.
    SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM

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  11. #11
    Norm357's Avatar
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    <---- Not a cop! Now that that is out of the way...


    If I am somewhere that is getting held up, I am taking no action unless and until someones life is in danger. Untill I fear that someone is about to die or get hurt, I am going to remain a witness.
    dlefdal said:
    Ummmm, what if I don't like thumbs in my butt?

  12. #12
    Retdetsgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    I'll give the citizen the benefit of the doubt here until proved otherwise, maybe he felt someone was in jeopardy.
    That's one of the unknowns about this. That's why my first post started with the word, maybe.
    When I used to be somebody (I'm center top)

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  13. #13
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    Suspect enters a restaurant wearing a ski mask and brandishing a firearm.

    Armed citizen reasonably feels (through witnessing the above), that his life, or other lives are in immediate peril.

    Armed citizen shoots and kills offender, and is wounded in the process.

    Under Florida law:
    “A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat, and has the right to stand his or her ground, and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another, or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.” [ F.S. 776.013(3) ]
    There remains no doubt in any reasonable mind, that armed robbery is a forcible felony, nor can I be compelled to believe that while in the direct, enclosed, and near proximity of a masked offender who is brandishing a firearm would any reasonable person not be placed in immediate, dire, and well-justified fear for his own life, and the lives of others also present. It would be incredible to believe that the citizen who acted to kill the offender was present with criminal intent himself, given his actions were reactionary, rather than unilateral. Therefore, by letter of the applicable Florida statute quoted above, the armed citizen acted well within the scope of current State law, and should well be immune from both civil and criminal penalty for his actions.

    In the philosophical debate regarding whether his actions were right, I believe that too few facts (primarily those regarding the armed citizens tactics and specific conduct) are revealed in the cursory news summary quoted in the initial post. On its face, it would appear that only the offender and the armed citizen suffered injury, with no collateral damage befalling any other present. This would support the assumption that the armed citizen's actions were sound, at least to that extent.

    I cannot find basic fault in any person purported to be acting in defense of themselves or other innocents, unless that person's actions were wholly ill-conceived or negligent in:

    1. the assessment of the threat posed,
    2. the performance of defensive action which assails or victimizes other innocents present, or
    3. is sheerly construed as being retaliative, rather than truly defensive.

    As no such evidence thus far revealed to us in this case supports any of these premises, I find it difficult to fault anyone but the offender for the events in question.

    It is the single most basic God-given right of any citizen of this country to live in peaceful and unhindered course, free from the threat of uninvited and unwarranted violence imposed upon him by any entity: personal, political, or conglomeratic. When faced with circumstances like those described, where such violence is purely uninvited or displays obvious predatory criminal intent, the citizen can certainly be compelled to desperation by fear of immediate harm, and I believe that it is only logical to expect that citizen to react definitively in their own defense or the defense of others present.

    The offender in this case obviously acted in the belief that he could profit from victimizing random persons in a public place while brandishing a deadly weapon, the actions of the armed citizen changed the course of the events that the offender obviously premeditated, and proved that not all citizens are ill-prepared to meet such wanton disregard for their safety, the sanctity of innocent life, and the law. I am certainly willing to wager that it wasn't this offender's first crime, and that he has likely a recidivist criminal. Granted, these are merely assumptions on my part, but are supported by some experience, and the context of the incident. If true, yet again, the system failed to protect the citizens, and they were (again) forced to protect themselves. Such events can serve as deterrence to future violent conduct, both in the final end to the actor involved, and for those who contemplate the commission of similar crimes. I also believe that we will see more and more of similar incidents in the future, as the progressive erosion of our society and its justice system continues and more of the law-abiding realize it.

    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
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  14. #14
    Retdetsgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by countybear View Post

    There remains no doubt in any reasonable mind, that armed robbery is a forcible felony, nor can I be compelled to believe that while in the direct, enclosed, and near proximity of a masked offender who is brandishing a firearm would any reasonable person not be placed in immediate, dire, and well-justified fear for his own life, and the lives of others also present. It would be incredible to believe that the citizen who acted to kill the offender was present with criminal intent himself, given his actions were reactionary, rather than unilateral. Therefore, by letter of the applicable Florida statute quoted above, the armed citizen acted well within the scope of current State law, and should well be immune from both civil and criminal penalty for his actions.
    So far I've seen nothing posted that even insinuates the citizen did anything illegal.

    The debate (admittedly with few details) is whether or not the citizen acted with common sense. So far we have nothing to determine whether he was a hero or an reckless fool. Sometimes there's a fine line distinguishing the two.

    Armed robbers brandish firearms to threaten people so they will turn over their money, rarely is their intent to start shooting. The stats make that very clear. Is the risk of stopping a robbery worth having innocent people shot and possibly killed? As Captain America stated, if it looked like the guy was going to use the gun, then I would say the citizen did the right thing. But if it appeared the robber just wanted the money, no innocent person should die over a few hundred bucks.

    If I shot everyone I legally could, I'd have about 20+ notches on my gun. I truly believe the discretion is the finer point of valor.

    No one can judge this particular case without more details. I'm just not going to say this guy used good judgment in a place with families and kids until more is revealed.
    When I used to be somebody (I'm center top)

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  15. #15
    TXCharlie's Avatar
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    The advantages of "taking them out" early in their career:
    1. It may save another life down the line if he were allowed to continue his armed robbery career - Or it may save several lives, maybe even a couple of cops' lives. Remember, some armed robbers can commit 50 or more robberies before they're caught or killed.
    2. It saves taxpayer money on a trial
    3. It un-burdons the Courts, Prisons, Parol & Probation systems
    4. It serves as a warning for other armed robbers to change careers.
    5. It makes Norm happy

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    As always Mac and Retdetsgt. you both make valid points for your side of the debate. As I'm sure all LEOs have done over the course of their careers , I've often ponder what I would do if I was caught in such a situation off duty. There are a lot of factors that would go into a decision to intercede. Am I with my family? Where are they in relation to me? Are there innocents in the background of the suspect? Are there innocents behind me in the line of fire? What am I armed with compared to what the suspect is armed with? Are there more than one known suspect? How about the possibility of unknown suspects? Where is the muzzle of the suspect's firearm pointed? If I shoot him could his weapon discharge by reflex, causing the action I'm seeking to prevent? Is someone in immediate deadly force jeopardy? Is it better to sit this one out and be a good witness? Would it be safer to confront the subject in the parking lot , thereby decreasing the danger to costumers? There are no clear cut answers. Lot of factors to consider for a 18 year police veteran who is under an obligation to act, if possible. What about for a civilian with no experience and a lot less training. If I were a civilian in that position, only one thing would matter to me. Will my actions prevent someone from getting seriously injured or killed? Nothing else is worth the risk. I'll give the citizen the benefit of the doubt here until proved otherwise, maybe he felt someone was in jeopardy.
    I agree with you Capt., and most likely we will likely see the circumstanes involved in this incident, since most BK have video surveillance installed. So we will see at some point I believe.
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  17. #17
    IndianaFuzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retdetsgt View Post
    Maybe. But the odds are the guy would have taken the money and left with no one getting shot.
    That's what the cooperative clerk at one of our convenience stores thought moments before the robber shot and killed her, despite her doing everything he said.
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  18. #18
    Retdetsgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndianaFuzz View Post
    That's what the cooperative clerk at one of our convenience stores thought moments before the robber shot and killed her, despite her doing everything he said.
    That's a real gut wrenching story, but it happens in less than 1&#37; of convenience store robberies. One exception now and then hardly makes a dent in the stats. A very tiny percentage of our homicides have squat to do with robberies.

    Start a policy of arming clerks and robberies will probably go down. But the number of clerks killed in those that occur will skyrocket because robbers will start shooting first before taking the money.
    When I used to be somebody (I'm center top)

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retdetsgt View Post
    Start a policy of arming clerks and robberies will probably go down. But the number of clerks killed in those that occur will skyrocket because robbers will start shooting first before taking the money.
    This started me thinking of the sales people behind the desk at the local gun stores and indoor ranges around here.

    They all carry openly in their stores - Everytime you see them, they have a gun on their hip - And, they defenitely sell high-dollar items in great demand on the streets.

    Yet I've never heard of a single one of them getting robbed or shot (except the part owner of DFW Gun Range shooting himself in the leg or butt or something a few years ago)

    Which reminds me:

    snopes.com: Gun Shop Robber

    Dead Stupid

    Claim: Thief who tries to rob a gun shop is shot dead by those in the store.

    Status: True.

    Example: [Collected on the Internet, 2005]


    Origins: Often, the various "dumb criminals" stories that come our way prove to be little more than fiction. This tale is an exception, in that it is relatively accurate, although some details of the event have been altered by whoever penned the "Darwin Awards" account chronicling it.

    On 3 February 1990, David Zaback attempted to hold up H&J Leather & Firearms Ltd., a gun shop located in Renton Highlands near Seattle, Washington. About 4:40 p.m. that day, he entered the crowded shop and announced his intention to rob it by telling everyone to put their hands on the counter and saying if anybody moved, he'd kill them. He then spotted a uniformed policeman having coffee with Wendall Woodall, the shop's owner. What happened next is less than clear in terms of who shot first, but there was an exchange of gunfire between David Zaback, the would-be robber; Timothy Lally, an 18-year veteran of the King County police force; and Danny Morris, one of the shop's clerks.

    Zaback, who had fired three times, was shot three times in the chest and once in the arm. He died in the hospital about four hours after the shooting. No one else was injured during the incident, and no charges were subsequently laid against Lally or Morris.

    The e-mailed narrative holds up as a news item for the most part, but some of its elements have been altered to make for better storytelling. Upon seeing the officer, the would-be robber announced a hold-up, and fired a few wild shots from a .22 target pistol. The officer and a clerk promptly returned fire, the police officer with a 9mm Glock 17, the clerk with a .50 Desert Eagle, assisted by several customers who also drew their guns, several of whom also fired.

    Although the Darwinized account presents the encounter in the humorous light of a hapless robber waving a pop gun being felled in a hail of bullets by a mass of heavily-armed gun shop patrons, that wasn't precisely the way of it. Zaback's weapon was a .38-caliber semiautomatic pistol, not the .22 target pistol of the e-mailed account. The clerk, Morris, fired a 10mm semiautomatic pistol, not a .50 Desert Eagle, and the policeman, Lally, fired a 9mm semiautomatic pistol. As for the participation of others, according to Renton police Capt. Don Persson, although several other customers had guns and pulled them, they did not shoot — the only ones involved in the exchange of lead were Zaback, Lally, and Morris.

    The robber was pronounced dead at the scene by Paramedics. Crime scene investigators located 47 expended cartridge cases in the shop. The subsequent autopsy revealed 23 gunshot wounds. Ballistics identified rounds from 7 different weapons.

    It's unclear how many shots were fired, in part because some of the suspect's shots struck ammunition on a counter, causing the ammunition to explode. "There were slugs all over that place," Persson said. As for Zaback, he died with four wounds in him, one in the arm and three in the chest, not the 23 wounds claimed in the colorized account.

    Yet one item of the Darwinized version one would otherwise suspect to have been the product of overwriting does indeed hold up: Renton police Capt. Don Persson said, "The surprising thing is that the man had to walk right past a marked police car to get in the front door."

    Barbara "red light district" Mikkelson

    Last updated: 25 March 2005

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  20. #20
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    Wolves will always seek their prey more aggressively where they believe it to be weak, defenseless, or cooperative. I do not believe that anyone not committed to the competent and decisive use of a firearm should not be in possession of one, however, as the violent grow more bold, we cannot but realize that the response of much of society will stem from the realization of that, and the refusal to become another victim. Human nature will take its course.

    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
    - Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

    Tell me not, Sweet, I am unkind,
    That from the nunnery
    Of thy chaste breast and quiet mind
    To war and arms I fly.
    - Lovelace

    The opinions expressed by this poster are wholly his own, and should never be construed to even remotely be in representation of his employer, its agencies or assigns. In fact, they probably fail to be in alignment with the opinions of any rational human being.

 

 
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