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  1. #1
    213th's Avatar
    213th is offline Solipsist
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    2 Wi carry members ticketed

    A Wisconsin group that promotes "open carry" of firearms says it will take action against Madison police after two of its members were issued citations for obstruction Saturday night when they refused to identify themselves at a restaurant.
    The incident occurred while five members of Wisconsin Carry met and ate at a Culver's restaurant near East Towne Mall, said Auric Gold, the group's secretary.
    Gold said each of the five men was "wearing a holstered firearm, a legal and constitutionally protected activity in Wisconsin."
    Eight officers came to the restaurant and demanded identification from the five men, Gold said, adding that when two of them refused, they were handcuffed, disarmed and searched for identification, then given municipal citations for obstruction and released. Wisconsin Carry won a $10,000 settlement for a Racine man in a similar situation.
    Gold said police cannot arrest anyone for obstruction simply for refusal to provide identification. But Madison Sgt. Shawn Engel said police can cite individuals for refusing to identify themselves depending on "the totality of what goes on ... in the event that we're investigating."


    The rest of the article can be found here


    'Open carry' group pledges to sue police for issuing citations


    I agree with Maclean's opinion of open carry. It's legal, but I wouldn't do it for various reasons. I kind of think these people are instigating these matters, trying to get arrested so that they can sue. It's not in the article, but I heard that one of the men cited had a tape recorder recording the conversation. It's a recent DA opinion from earlier this year that has stopped the prosecution of those openly carrying. It's not a common thing and I think people need to realize if they are going to open carry, for the most part there are going to be questions. I don't think they are helping the concealed carry cause by doing this.
    He who has the money, signs the cheques.
    He who signs the cheques, makes the rules.
    He who makes the rules, has the power.
    He who has the power, has the money.

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    keith720's Avatar
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    My feelings are that they are out to stir the nest so they can get some attention. In other circumstamces, I'd liken them to "attention Whores."
    For the morning will come. Brightly will it shine on the brave and true, kindly upon all who suffer for the cause, glorious upon the tombs of heroes. Thus will shine the dawn.

    Winston Churchill

  3. #3
    pgg's Avatar
    pgg
    pgg is offline Damnit, I'm hungry again.
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    I also think they are trying to bait officers/departments into arresting / citing them.
    'Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a
    delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly
    promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
    holds forth the proposition that it is entirely
    possible to pick up a turd by the clean end!'

    A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. Sigmund Freud

  4. #4
    MacLean's Avatar
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    You're both right.

    My question is why do we play into their mitts?
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  5. #5
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    lewisipso is offline Injustice/Indifference/In God we trust
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    If there is a state or municipal code requiring a person identify themselves then they are in violation regardless of the open carry. Sorry I'm to lazy to search for it. However, I gotta go with Mac. Why cater to them? I don't like it either but these type people are looking for a lawsuit fight not a gun fight. But if they ever do...
    Do not war for peace. If you must war, war for justice. For without justice there is no peace. -me

    We are who we choose to be.

    R.I.P. Arielle. 08/20/2010-09/16/2012


  6. #6
    213th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacLean View Post
    You're both right.

    My question is why do we play into their mitts?
    Could it really play out much different though? I imagine you wouldn't just want to walk in there and tell the person making the complaint that the other people aren't breaking the law, and then walk out. Wouldn't you want to atleast identify them, even if the property owner doesn't care if they are there or not? Which is exactly what these people want the officers to do.
    He who has the money, signs the cheques.
    He who signs the cheques, makes the rules.
    He who makes the rules, has the power.
    He who has the power, has the money.

  7. #7
    keith720's Avatar
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    If I see a group of asshats sittiing around with their butts sticking out to show off their guns in public, I will not infringe upon their rights. I will however, monitor them accordingly, and take action accordingly within the boundaries of the law.

    (I would like to add that my views on OC'ers as "asshats" in no way reflects the opinion of others associated with this site as either contributors or staff.)
    Last edited by keith720; 09-22-10 at 03:58 PM. Reason: disclaimer added
    For the morning will come. Brightly will it shine on the brave and true, kindly upon all who suffer for the cause, glorious upon the tombs of heroes. Thus will shine the dawn.

    Winston Churchill

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    They're like little children testing boundaries and pushing buttons.
    In Memoriam: Officer James C. McBride, MPDC - EOW 8-15-2005

    This product is meant for educational purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. List each check separately by bank number. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. Do not use while operating a motor vehicle or heavy equipment. Postage will be paid by addressee. Subject to CAB approval. This is not an offer to sell securities. Apply only to affected area. May be too intense for some viewers. Do not stamp. Use other side for additional listings. For recreational use only. Do not disturb. All models over 18 years of age. If condition persists, consult your physician. No user-serviceable parts inside. Freshest if eaten before date on carton. Subject to change without notice. Times approximate. Simulated picture. No postage necessary if mailed in the United States. Please remain seated until the ride has come to a complete stop. Breaking seal constitutes acceptance of agreement. For off-road use only. As seen on TV. One size fits all. Many suitcases look alike. Contains a substantial amount of non-tobacco ingredients. Colors may, in time, fade. We have sent the forms which seem right for you. Slippery when wet. For office use only. Not affiliated with the American Red Cross. Drop in any mailbox. Edited for television. Keep cool; process promptly. Post office will not deliver without postage. List was current at time of printing. May cause abdominal cramping and loose stools. Vitamins A, D, E, and K have been added. Not designed or intended for use in on-line control of aircraft, air traffic, aircraft navigation or aircraft communications; or in the design, construction, operation or maintenance of any nuclear facility. Container may explode if heated. May contain traces of various nuts and seeds. Opinions expressed are solely those of the provider, and no other endorsement should be assumed or inferred.

  9. #9
    eb31 is offline Banned
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    Just a little light, comical reading for my fellow LEO's.

    Police Forum Thread on the Culver's 5


    For the record, I've tried to explain to them on their own forum that their actions are nothing more than antagonistic and extremely counterproductive to anything they "think" they are trying to accomplish. If they would simply carry, which they are well within their rights doing, and go about their daily business...dealing with the occassional LE run in due to a call from a "concerned" citizen (who isn't versed on carry laws)....they would be doing themselves and everyone else justice.

    Instead they run around with handguns, AR-15's (Ponderosa incident), voice and video recorders just looking to cause a scene and have a run in with LE....just so they cry wolf about their civil liberties and constitutional rights being violated.

    They don't seem to grasp the idea, nor do they care, that...to the general public (their biggest audience) ...their actions only lend to make them look like maniacle, raving lunatics. Quite opposite from the contributing, law abiding, citizens that they think they are.

    Personally, I would prefer if most of them just stayed in their mofhers basement where they crawled out of. But that's just me.

    Keep up the good work guys. Every time they refuse to show ID...hit them with DC. Eventually they'll get the idea.


    CO
    Tn

  10. #10
    keith720's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb31 View Post
    Just a little light, comical reading for my fellow LEO's.

    Police Forum Thread on the Culver's 5


    For the record, I've tried to explain to them on their own forum that their actions are nothing more than antagonistic and extremely counterproductive to anything they "think" they are trying to accomplish. If they would simply carry, which they are well within their rights doing, and go about their daily business...dealing with the occassional LE run in due to a call from a "concerned" citizen (who isn't versed on carry laws)....they would be doing themselves and everyone else justice.

    Instead they run around with handguns, AR-15's (Ponderosa incident), voice and video recorders just looking to cause a scene and have a run in with LE....just so they cry wolf about their civil liberties and constitutional rights being violated.

    They don't seem to grasp the idea, nor do they care, that...to the general public (their biggest audience) ...their actions only lend to make them look like maniacle, raving lunatics. Quite opposite from the contributing, law abiding, citizens that they think they are.

    Personally, I would prefer if most of them just stayed in their mofhers basement where they crawled out of. But that's just me.

    Keep up the good work guys. Every time they refuse to show ID...hit them with DC. Eventually they'll get the idea.


    CO
    Tn
    I see that they posted Mac's and my profile on their pages. Evidentally, they don't care for our right to express our views. Oh well.
    For the morning will come. Brightly will it shine on the brave and true, kindly upon all who suffer for the cause, glorious upon the tombs of heroes. Thus will shine the dawn.

    Winston Churchill

  11. #11
    MacLean's Avatar
    MacLean is offline O/R Gun mod
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    Quote Originally Posted by 213th View Post
    Could it really play out much different though? I imagine you wouldn't just want to walk in there and tell the person making the complaint that the other people aren't breaking the law, and then walk out. Wouldn't you want to atleast identify them, even if the property owner doesn't care if they are there or not? Which is exactly what these people want the officers to do.
    I'm not in the business of identifying people who aren't committing crimes.

    Apparently reading comprehension is suffering between boards, so I'll elaborate.

    Why do we stumble all over ourselves playing into the hands of people who wish to humiliate us by doing stupid things like identifying people who are committing no crime? If indeed someone calls from the establishment, a quick and concise explanation that they can ask anyone they want to leave to leave handles the entire call.

    I have better things to do than place myself on camera asking questions I already know the answer to.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  12. #12
    SteelCityK9Cop's Avatar
    SteelCityK9Cop is offline Officer First Class
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    Here is a novel idea... how bout trying to educate the police that may not know the changes in the law.

  13. #13
    rbur0802 is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityK9Cop View Post
    Here is a novel idea... how bout trying to educate the police that may not know the changes in the law.
    I don't think the 4th amendment has changed much in the lifetime of any of the officers involved. Nor do I think any of the officers involved were interested in any discussion or education.

  14. #14
    Standard Dave's Avatar
    Standard Dave is offline Constable
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    It's frustrating sometimes not to be able to do something about idiots who are there to stir things up or test responses, I've had this problem with anti war/ anti gun protesters, suspected terrorists, animal rights activists and religious groups you have to leave them be at that time and nail them on for something else or use ways and means to ID them later if it is truly important.

    Most people have to go home or to their car at some point.
    "all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" Edmund Burke.
    "the world is a dangerous place place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who do not do anything about it" Albert Einstein

  15. #15
    MacLean's Avatar
    MacLean is offline O/R Gun mod
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb31 View Post
    Just a little light, comical reading for my fellow LEO's.

    Police Forum Thread on the Culver's 5


    For the record, I've tried to explain to them on their own forum that their actions are nothing more than antagonistic and extremely counterproductive to anything they "think" they are trying to accomplish. If they would simply carry, which they are well within their rights doing, and go about their daily business...dealing with the occassional LE run in due to a call from a "concerned" citizen (who isn't versed on carry laws)....they would be doing themselves and everyone else justice.

    Instead they run around with handguns, AR-15's (Ponderosa incident), voice and video recorders just looking to cause a scene and have a run in with LE....just so they cry wolf about their civil liberties and constitutional rights being violated.

    They don't seem to grasp the idea, nor do they care, that...to the general public (their biggest audience) ...their actions only lend to make them look like maniacle, raving lunatics. Quite opposite from the contributing, law abiding, citizens that they think they are.

    Personally, I would prefer if most of them just stayed in their mofhers basement where they crawled out of. But that's just me.

    Keep up the good work guys. Every time they refuse to show ID...hit them with DC. Eventually they'll get the idea.


    CO
    Tn
    Most LEO's don't go that far out of their way to stir up shit on the internet, whatever their opinion might be.

    Please go to the introduction forum and introduce yourself, and forward your information for verification within seven days to a Super Moderator.

    Thanks!
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  16. #16
    MacLean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbur0802 View Post
    I don't think the 4th amendment has changed much in the lifetime of any of the officers involved. Nor do I think any of the officers involved were interested in any discussion or education.
    LEO's are people, and people in every walk of life make mistakes.

    That is what the courts are for, yes?

    Please go introduce yourself in the intro section.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  17. #17
    eb31 is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityK9Cop View Post
    Here is a novel idea... how bout trying to educate the police that may not know the changes in the law.
    Exactly. I civil conversation and each party walks away better informed. Sadly, they are too hung up on whether or not they are being unlawfully detained..etc. They want to spew the tired rhetoric tbey learned on Youtube "Am I free to go?", "Am I required to show you my ID?", "I'm recording this" and whatever other nonsense their are trying to teach themselves to remember.

    I have a feeling if it doesnt involve up,up,down,down,left,right,lef t,right,b,a,b,a they have difficulty comprehending it.

    Even before I became a CO I open carried everywhere I was legally allowed...day and night. I've had more run ins with LEO than I can recall. Some were pleasant...some were rude. Like any fascet of life. I simply showed my ID and permit together...if asked....and talked to the officer(s) as if I hadnt done anything wrong because frankly, I hadn't. I would get either a nice conversation and walk awY feeling good....or I would get a unsolicited lecture about the officer's likes/dislikes and his personal opinion on open carry. To which I would thank him for his concern and be on my way...open carrying.


    To me, that's how things should/could be handled.

  18. #18
    rbur0802 is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacLean View Post
    LEO's are people, and people in every walk of life make mistakes.
    Without a doubt. But it is different when someone has a job as a public official and they go out of their way to express their feelings on a subject and express blatant disregard for the constitution and people's rights.

    That is what the courts are for, yes?
    Again, without a doubt.

  19. #19
    MacLean's Avatar
    MacLean is offline O/R Gun mod
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    To the members of both camps participating in this conversation:


    This is a topic that gets heated. We know it, and you know it.


    If we can't all have a civilized conversation where we sometimes disagree, I will remove the thread and any user who can't play by the terms of service for this board.

    The terms of service are publicly posted.

    Thank you,

    Mac
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  20. #20
    keith720's Avatar
    keith720 is offline Finely Aged
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    I'm just about done with this one! If someone wants to exercise their right to OC, so be it. I'll respect that right, and as long as they don't do anything that infringes on anyone else's rights, they can put on their display and go about life. If they're doing nothing wrong, they'll have no problem with me or any member of my department. We have had training concerning OC and the right of people to do so. Unless there is a reason to think that they are committing a crime, OC'ers are held to the same standard as anyone else. That's it from me.
    For the morning will come. Brightly will it shine on the brave and true, kindly upon all who suffer for the cause, glorious upon the tombs of heroes. Thus will shine the dawn.

    Winston Churchill

 

 
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