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  1. #1
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    Wisconsin Senate Republicans orders arrest of their Democratic colleagues who fled the state to prevent union-busting bill from passing

    Senate Republicans Thursday ordered the arrest of their 14 Democratic colleagues, who fled the state two weeks ago to avoid a vote on Gov. Scott Walker's controversial budget repair bill.
    It's unclear whether the resolution to force the senators back to the Capitol is constitutional. The state Constitution prohibits the arrest of legislators while in session unless they're suspected of committing felonies, treason or breach of the peace.
    The Senate resolution calls for the Senate sergeant at arms to "with or without force," and with or without the help of any law enforcement officers, take missing members into custody and bring them to the Capitol — any time of the day or night.
    Under the resolution adopted Thursday, the senators may only be taken into custody if they return to Wisconsin, Fitzgerald said. The resolution does not call for their extradition from another state.
    Some police — many of whom have marched alongside protesters against Walker's plan to effectively end collective bargaining for public workers — have already objected to the arrest resolution. Jim Palmer, head of the 11,000 member Wisconsin Professional Police Association, called it an "unreasonable abuse of police power."
    "Due to the fact that Wisconsin officers lack any jurisdiction across state lines, does Sen. Fitzgerald intend to establish a lawmaker border patrol?" Palmer said. "The thought of using law enforcement officer to exercise force in order to achieve a political objective is insanely wrong and Wisconsin sorely needs reasonable solutions and not potentially dangerous political theatrics."
    More here: Senate orders arrest of missing Democrats

  2. #2
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    The actions of the Wisconsin Senate Democrats have done nothing except undermine the principles of democracy. If everytime the minority party is on the loosing side of an issue, they turn tail and run, nothing will get accomplished. They made their point the second day they were gone. Their actions have cost the state an additional $164,000,000 and perhaps as many as 1500 jobs. A month from now, I'd like to ask any of the state workers that are laid-off if the senate did the right thing?
    For the morning will come. Brightly will it shine on the brave and true, kindly upon all who suffer for the cause, glorious upon the tombs of heroes. Thus will shine the dawn.

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  3. #3
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    lewisipso is offline Injustice/Indifference/In God we trust
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    This....
    The state Constitution prohibits the arrest of legislators while in session unless they're suspected of committing felonies, treason or breach of the peace.
    seems to trump this...
    Senate Republicans Thursday ordered the arrest of their 14 Democratic colleagues
    Do not war for peace. If you must war, war for justice. For without justice there is no peace. -me

    We are who we choose to be.

    R.I.P. Arielle. 08/20/2010-09/16/2012


  4. #4
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    I'm pro-labor when it comes to public employees, especially police and fire. I work in a state with no LEO Bill of Rights. There are 160+ SO's in the state, and over 200 PD's. My agency is one of only 14 agencies with a labor contract and bargaining unit. Out of that 14, we are one of only SIX with binding arbitration written into our bylaws. FOP just managed to kill a similar bill in our state legislature, but we definitely haven't seen the end of it. I am scared to death of the movement gaining ground here.

    That being said, what those legislators are doing is more hurtful to the cause than just about anything else I can think of.
    "If anything worthwhile comes of this tragedy, it should be the realization by every citizen that often the only thing that stands between them and losing everything they hold dear... is the man wearing a badge." -- Ronald Reagan, in the wake of the deaths of 4 CHP troopers in the Newhall Incident, 1970

    The opinions given in my posts DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "121Traffic" on O/R.

  5. #5
    ChesCopPodz's Avatar
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    I'm actually getting a little worried about that situation. When the majority party can order the arrest of the minority party to get their way on a vote, something is seriously wrong with the system.
    The world would be much cleaner if blind people carried brooms instead of sticks.

    At communion, when the priest says "Body of Christ", I say "Thanks, I've been working out", then I grab the cracker and run back to my seat

    An amateur practices until he gets it right. A professional practices until he cant get it wrong.

    They've got us surrounded? Good. Now we can fire in any direction. Those bastards won't get away this time.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChesCopPodz View Post
    I'm actually getting a little worried about that situation. When the majority party can order the arrest of the minority party to get their way on a vote, something is seriously wrong with the system.
    It's the job of a legislator to be present to cast a vote anyway. When one party refuses to show up in order to block the democratic process of even holding something up for a vote, that sets a dangerous precedent that, if followed, would cause the gears of legislation to grind to a halt all around the country. They can't establish a quorum right now. All they need is ONE freaking democrat to show up and the process can move on. If the voters in that state don't like what happens, they can vote those people out of office and their new representatives can work to have the bill repealed. I don't like it any more than anyone else, but that is the system.

    As for the constitutionality of bodily placing someone into custody and bringing them into the chambers so their vote can be cast, that remains to be seen. If, however, the democrats in question weren't being so foolish, this wouldn't be an issue.
    "If anything worthwhile comes of this tragedy, it should be the realization by every citizen that often the only thing that stands between them and losing everything they hold dear... is the man wearing a badge." -- Ronald Reagan, in the wake of the deaths of 4 CHP troopers in the Newhall Incident, 1970

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by 121Traffic View Post
    I'm pro-labor when it comes to public employees, especially police and fire. I work in a state with no LEO Bill of Rights. There are 160+ SO's in the state, and over 200 PD's. My agency is one of only 14 agencies with a labor contract and bargaining unit. Out of that 14, we are one of only SIX with binding arbitration written into our bylaws. FOP just managed to kill a similar bill in our state legislature, but we definitely haven't seen the end of it. I am scared to death of the movement gaining ground here.

    That being said, what those legislators are doing is more hurtful to the cause than just about anything else I can think of.

    Binding arbitration is not the same as collective barganing as I understand it.

    Binding Arbitration:
    Binding arbitration legal definition of Binding arbitration. Binding arbitration synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

    Collective Bargaining:
    collective bargaining legal definition of collective bargaining. collective bargaining synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

    I can support the arbitration in the public sector as it relies on factual presentation of facts from both sides ie revenues, expenditures ect when it comes to public employees. Collective Bargaining, not so much.

    Meanwhile, fishing in Russia:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." -- Frederic Bastiat

    "Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter." Ernest Hemingway

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  8. #8
    121Traffic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Five-0 View Post
    Binding arbitration is not the same as collective barganing as I understand it.

    Binding Arbitration:
    Binding arbitration legal definition of Binding arbitration. Binding arbitration synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

    Collective Bargaining:
    collective bargaining legal definition of collective bargaining. collective bargaining synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

    I can support the arbitration in the public sector as it relies on factual presentation of facts from both sides ie revenues, expenditures ect when it comes to public employees. Collective Bargaining, not so much.
    No it definitely isn't. I apologize if I made it sound like it was. We are one of only 14 agencies that have collective bargaining in the state, and only one of six out of that 14 who have binding arbitration as a mediation measure within the bargaining agreements. Without the right to binding arbitration written into your bylaws, the city manager who whoever is doing your negotiations can tell you to F off, they are doing it their way whether you like it or not. That applies to both the bargaining process, AND breaches of established contract.

    As for our views on bargaining and arbitration, I guess we're just different. I'm one who believes that effective bargaining which satisfies all involved requires a good relationship between the bargaining unit and the city. We try to bargain with that philosophy. There are some labor organizations that really have an adversarial relationship. We worked hard for our bargaining rights here (the cops that did it back in the day went door to door in the community on their days off, etc. They didn't win the bargaining charter on the first go round either).

    Our unit is willing to make concessions sometimes in order to keep the relations amicable so that the permissive subjects for bargaining can be brought up in the future. The City is only mandated to bargain with us about our wages, health insurance rates of contribution and level of benefit, and some other things. A lot of other important things, like uniforms, special assignment selection processes, are permissive subjects and the city isn't required to bargain on them....they can even refuse to listen to what we have to say on the subject. Then there are some subjects that are non-bargainable, and that includes most PD policies, management rights including the hiring process, manpower requirements, that we can't even bring to the table. SO, it's always in our best interests to be reasonable and open minded, and not try to take the whole hog. Our last negotiation was during the big economic shit storm, and we willingly took a hit, knowing that it wasn't best to ask the city to give us raises, etc. That went a long way in keeping our good relationship with management.

    As for arbitration, it works both ways. Yeah, it gets us what we want when we really do deserve it in the manner you described. The short answer for those that aren't familiar is this: if the barganing unit and the city can't agree on something whatsoever, it goes to an arbiter. The arbiter is a neutral, uninvolved third-party. The arbiter listens to what both sides have to say before making a ruling. Once the arbiter rules in favor of one party, the other side MUST comply. That's the "binding" part of binding arbitration...some places have "non-binding arbitration" as a level of mediation. You can take it to an arbiter, but city management ultimately has the last word, and can indeed tell the arbiter, "We appreciate your input, but F off, we're not doing it." It also keeps us from going down a path of greed knowing that if we want something, we can't just bleat and piss and moan about it. We have to articulate why the city should concede on that subject. It's a safeguard to all involved. We don't take arbitration lightly since it is extremely adversarial. We would only take the most important matters to arbitration...if it is something we can live without until the next negotiation a couple years later, we do it. There's no need to piss off everyone and anyone fighting too hard for something that might be a luxury, not a necessity.

    And let's be honest...police labor organizations aren't "unions" in the true sense of the word. We can't strike (it's written into our bylaws), and we can't stop responding to emergencies. We don't have the leverage that true unions have on their private sector employers, and I would never suggest that we should. I blanch a little every time someone compares the my lodge or the FOP in general to the Teamsters, or AFL/CIO, or AFSCME chapters that permit striking or complete labor slowdowns.

    Sorry, just my 0.02 on the matter. We just had a quarterly lodge meeting the other night so I'm all geeked up on FOP.
    "If anything worthwhile comes of this tragedy, it should be the realization by every citizen that often the only thing that stands between them and losing everything they hold dear... is the man wearing a badge." -- Ronald Reagan, in the wake of the deaths of 4 CHP troopers in the Newhall Incident, 1970

    The opinions given in my posts DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "121Traffic" on O/R.

  9. #9
    Five-0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 121Traffic View Post
    And let's be honest...police labor organizations aren't "unions" in the true sense of the word. We can't strike (it's written into our bylaws), and we can't stop responding to emergencies. We don't have the leverage that true unions have on their private sector employers, and I would never suggest that we should. I blanch a little every time someone compares the my lodge or the FOP in general to the Teamsters, or AFL/CIO, or AFSCME chapters that permit striking or complete labor slowdowns.

    Sorry, just my 0.02 on the matter. We just had a quarterly lodge meeting the other night so I'm all geeked up on FOP.

    Up until this last election when I stepped down/didn't run real hard I was an officer in my local lodge. I completely know where you are coming from. Most of our efforts go toward providing additional insurance for cops and raising money for LOCAL charities. We do have a habit of supplying factual information to elected official on LE matters. You can find some on here if you look hard enough.

    Meanwhile, fishing in Russia:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." -- Frederic Bastiat

    "Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter." Ernest Hemingway

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  10. #10
    121Traffic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Five-0 View Post
    Up until this last election when I stepped down/didn't run real hard I was an officer in my local lodge. I completely know where you are coming from. Most of our efforts go toward providing additional insurance for cops and raising money for LOCAL charities. We do have a habit of supplying factual information to elected official on LE matters. You can find some on here if you look hard enough.
    And make no mistake. You and I will agree in THAT being the most important duty of any FOP lodge. At the end of the day when all the bullshit about contracts, grievances, etc. are put to rest, it still feels really good to go to a meeting and do some good. It's good hearing someone ask for a motion donating $500 dollars to help a local valedictorian with a 4.5GPA on her quest to $7000 so she can study abroad for the summer (happened at the meeting). When the discussion came, it was even better to hear someone motioning to amend the original motion to $1500. Granted, we're a non-profit so we HAVE to give our money away, but damnit, sometimes it just feels great to say "aye."
    "If anything worthwhile comes of this tragedy, it should be the realization by every citizen that often the only thing that stands between them and losing everything they hold dear... is the man wearing a badge." -- Ronald Reagan, in the wake of the deaths of 4 CHP troopers in the Newhall Incident, 1970

    The opinions given in my posts DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "121Traffic" on O/R.

  11. #11
    Mike325 is online now I like to ride on the fence!
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    I think the big misnomer of collective bargaining is the idea that unions come in and demand 10/10/10 for raises on a 3 year contract and because they are a union, they get it. In reality, negotiations around here have always been a 2 way street with both sides giving and taking.

    This bill is FLYING trough Ohio legislature now...

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    Until the "Flee-Baggers" in Wisconsin decide to come out of hiding and do their job, nothing will be decided here.
    For the morning will come. Brightly will it shine on the brave and true, kindly upon all who suffer for the cause, glorious upon the tombs of heroes. Thus will shine the dawn.

    Winston Churchill

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChesCopPodz View Post
    I'm actually getting a little worried about that situation. When the majority party can order the arrest of the minority party to get their way on a vote, something is seriously wrong with the system.
    When the minority party can leave and render democracy inoperative is much worse in my book.

    As Obama said: "We won you lost, get over it."

    Well the Wisconsin democrats need to get over it. The people overwhelmingly voted for Republican's in that state and the Senator's are representing their constituents (the majority) and voting for this bill.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by 121Traffic View Post
    I'm pro-labor when it comes to public employees, especially police and fire. I work in a state with no LEO Bill of Rights. There are 160+ SO's in the state, and over 200 PD's. My agency is one of only 14 agencies with a labor contract and bargaining unit. Out of that 14, we are one of only SIX with binding arbitration written into our bylaws. FOP just managed to kill a similar bill in our state legislature, but we definitely haven't seen the end of it. I am scared to death of the movement gaining ground here.

    That being said, what those legislators are doing is more hurtful to the cause than just about anything else I can think of.
    Agreed. It doesn't matter whether you support the dems or the reps in this case. But for the dems to do the walk out basically is giving the reps the right to do it right back to them sometime in the future. That is no way for our lawmakers to operate.
    CHIRP! CHIRP!

 

 

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