Welcome to the APBWeb.
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21
  1. #1
    Buttercup's Avatar
    Buttercup is offline Thrives in sunshine
    Supporting Member Lvl 1
    Join Date
    04-29-06
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    18,093
    Rep Power
    4329092

    'Handcuffed by policy': Fire crews watch man die

    SAN FRANCISCO Fire crews and police could only watch after a man waded into San Francisco Bay, stood up to his neck and waited. They wanted to do something, but a policy tied to earlier budget cuts strictly forbade them from trying to save the 50-year-old, officials said.

    A witness finally pulled the apparently suicidal man's lifeless body from the 54-degree water.
    'Handcuffed by policy': Fire crews watch man die - US news - Life - msnbc.com




  2. #2
    Sam's Avatar
    Sam
    Sam is offline I do not like green eggs and ham.
    Join Date
    10-04-10
    Posts
    103
    Rep Power
    73408
    I'm open to any and all opinions on how a Pubic Safety crew could stand by and watch this. I'm not automatically damning them from just the news accounts, so please offer me an argument that doesn't make the cops and firemen look bad in this~

  3. #3
    MacLean's Avatar
    MacLean is offline O/R Gun mod
    Verified LEO
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    09-05-07
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    11,803
    Rep Power
    4584773
    I've seen this attitude.

    I've seen it start in cute little auto-replies and voice mail greetings that say "sorry I can't help you today I'm on furlough."

    The unsaid part is "screw you assholes that I *work* for that cut our budget."

    Any of you thinking along the same lines - keep it up. Your turn is next to be a headline about fucking your oath because you didn't get a training class you wanted.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  4. #4
    HudsonHawk's Avatar
    HudsonHawk is offline Moderator
    Premium Lifetime Member
    Verified LEO
    Site Moderator
    Join Date
    01-17-06
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,536
    Rep Power
    1710441
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    I'm open to any and all opinions on how a Pubic Safety crew could stand by and watch this. I'm not automatically damning them from just the news accounts, so please offer me an argument that doesn't make the cops and firemen look bad in this~

    I think that the headline may give the wrong perception that first responders didn't want to help. Here are some more revealing sentences from the article:

    "First responders and about 75 people watched the incident on Monday from a beach in Alameda... Interim Alameda Fire Chief Mike D'Orazi said that due to 2009 budget cuts his crews did not have the training or cold-water gear to go into the water... The Coast Guard was called to the scene, but the water was too shallow for its boat. A Coast Guard helicopter arrived more than an hour later because it had been on another call and had to refuel. As for police, they didn't have the gear for the cold water and couldn't risk being pulled under."

    Sam, I could pose a similar question to you (a civilian). Why didn't the 75 people (civilians) help? Can you offer me an argument that doesn't make the civilians look bad in this? I am being facetious of course. I imagine that, like the first responders, none of them had the proper training or equipment to facilitate a rescue!

    You may not have experienced this, but it can be extremely difficult to arrest a person who does not want to be handcuffed. With that in consideration, imagine the dilemma of taking a person into custody who is emotionally disturbed and attempting to do so in all of your gear while in freezing water. The situation is not as easily solved as a reporter might insinuate. A rescue attempt would have greatly endangered the lives of the first responders with little likelihood of being successful.

    One of the most difficult things I've had to experience was watching people die and wishing I could have done something to prevent it. I can only assume that the first responders at that scene felt the same way. Budget cuts that ill prepare responders to deal with situations is not their fault.
    "never bring paws to a gunfight" - Jenna

  5. #5
    Odd's Avatar
    Odd
    Odd is offline Cosmonaut Trainer
    Supporting Member Lvl 3
    Join Date
    10-08-08
    Posts
    2,056
    Rep Power
    2508663
    MSNBC Reports "First responders and about 75 people watched the incident" Not quite. 76 watched and one could have saved him at any time - Raymond Zack could have turned around and rescued himself quite easily.

    Guess going by my math it would turn out to be 75 though since a woman did swim out to retrieve his body. Must have been quite a sight to see this lady dragging a 6'3" 300lb body along. His size underscores the point that this man, clearly intent on harming himself, could easily have taken a rescuer along with him. This was no case of a 10 year old who floated out too far and drown because nobody would help. Mr Zack was a victim of his troubled mind, but he was also the instigator of a dangerous situation.

    That said, this department did have a funded boat-and-surf water rescue in the recent past, which was de-certified in 2009. Did everyone involved move to other departments and take the boats and gear with them? Not attempting a rescue is one thing and one I can not see the fault in as I have little pity for the self destructive when it endangers others. I would like to think policy be damned had it been that 10yo, and credit Mr Zack his selfish act getting a program refunded. (or was it defunded because it wasn't needed and now others will suffer more?) Though not attempting to contact Mr Zack (as reported and all I can go on, my apologizes to Alameda if that is in error) and leaving it to a member of the public to retrieve the corpse makes the post a couple up ring like a bell.

  6. #6
    Jks9199 is online now The Reason People Hate Cops & Causer of War
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    04-16-06
    Location
    Northern VA
    Posts
    4,126
    Rep Power
    6563843
    I've got kind of mixed feelings.

    No first responder is required to senselessly endanger their lives going into a situation that they aren't trained or reasonably equipped for. I don't carry a firefighter's turnouts; if I'm on the scene of a house fire, I'm not going in unless I count the odds as being reasonable for me to get back out. Firefighters don't have guns and body armor; they don't go to a shooting scene till the cops stabilize it. And there are still plenty of situations that we cops hold the scene until the SWAT guys can get there, or the first cop holds until he's got enough to make a team.

    But, at the same time, how do you sit and watch something like this? How deep was he when they arrived?
    Voting against incumbents until we get a Congress that does its job.

    TASER: almost as good as alcohol for teaching white boys to dance

    "Don't suffer from PTSD -- Go out and cause it!"
    -- Col. David Grossman, US Army, ret.

    All opinions expressed are my own and are not official statements of my employer.

  7. #7
    Motorwaycop's Avatar
    Motorwaycop is online now Retired Plod
    Supporting Member Lvl 2
    Verified LEO
    Site Moderator
    Join Date
    09-28-06
    Location
    Ye Olde England
    Posts
    2,573
    Rep Power
    2450756
    When I first joined the UK police 30 yrs ago you were booted out if you failed to qualify in basic water rescue techniques.
    I spoke to a new officer the other day and they can't even swim!!! What's worse, they are not expected to be able to do so.
    Our forces no longer expect(or apparently want) us to carry out this type of rescue.
    Wether we should be morally obliged to try as a human being is another matter. My personal feeling is that any one of the 76 people watching could have tried, if they had the skill to do so.
    There is also the proviso that they should not risk becoming another victim, very often the rescuer ends up becoming another problem.
    Being hard perhaps we should not tear ourselves apart too much over the selfish act of the man who wanted to kill himself so publicly.
    the sole advantage of power is that you can do more good.
    ( Baltasar Gracian )

  8. #8
    Five-0's Avatar
    Five-0 is offline Super Moderator
    Premium Lifetime Member
    Verified LEO
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    05-15-06
    Posts
    10,982
    Rep Power
    8357019
    Welcome TD.com posters. Linkbacks to http://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant/p...e-of-them.aspx approved.

    Meanwhile, fishing in Russia:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." -- Frederic Bastiat

    "Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter." Ernest Hemingway

    The opinions given in my signatures & threads DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "Five-0" on Officerresource.com

  9. #9
    MacLean's Avatar
    MacLean is offline O/R Gun mod
    Verified LEO
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    09-05-07
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    11,803
    Rep Power
    4584773
    Quote Originally Posted by Jks9199 View Post
    But, at the same time, how do you sit and watch something like this? How deep was he when they arrived?
    If it were going to be me in that article, it would say I was trying every other damn thing I could think of.

    Nobody thought about a rope?
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  10. #10
    Pudge's Avatar
    Pudge is online now Site Admin
    Verified LEO
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    12-04-05
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    10,320
    Rep Power
    8591418
    I'm mixed about this. My natural reaction is to join in with the "this is wrong" crowd. But, the side that keeps me coming home under my own power at the end of every night is a bit challenged with the thought of how to "rescue" this guy.

    What a vast number of people won't consider is that this guy had the intention of killing himself. If he's bent on making that happen, he could make things pretty damned dangerous for those trying to stop him from doing it. The article said he was standing in neck deep water on the arrival of responders, so we're looking at approximately 5+ feet of water to deal with him in. Couple his resistance with the conditions of the current and whatever lie at the bottom and it's a pretty safe bet that someone may die with him if they don't have some equipment.

    I guess you could always try to rope him and drag him from a safe distance.
    "Like" us on facebook! https://www.facebook.com/pages/Offic...93147194083228

    Follow members of O/R as they tweet a "Ride a long" on their shifts on the front page of the site and on twitter at the following links:

    www.twitter.com/PoliceRideAlong
    www.twitter.com/lewisipso
    www.twitter.com/ORgopher
    www.twitter.com/SecondChance122
    www.twitter.com/pojmm
    www.twitter.com/ORGIB

    The opinions given in my posts & threads DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "Pudge" on Officerresource.com

  11. #11
    lewisipso's Avatar
    lewisipso is offline Injustice/Indifference/In God we trust
    Supporting Member Lvl 3
    Verified LEO
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    02-02-07
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    14,725
    Rep Power
    6962511
    Well here is my .02. CB and I aren't trained in any water rescue either but that didn't stop us. The Mississippi may not have been 53 degrees but it sure was pretty damn chilly. Our victim was in neck deep water when she finally went out. Although we did not have to go that deep to get her we did not know that when we decided to go.
    Do not war for peace. If you must war, war for justice. For without justice there is no peace. -me

    We are who we choose to be.

    R.I.P. Arielle. 08/20/2010-09/16/2012


  12. #12
    Jks9199 is online now The Reason People Hate Cops & Causer of War
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    04-16-06
    Location
    Northern VA
    Posts
    4,126
    Rep Power
    6563843
    Quote Originally Posted by MacLean View Post
    If it were going to be me in that article, it would say I was trying every other damn thing I could think of.

    Nobody thought about a rope?
    That was my point; I figured I didn't need to elaborate it too much here.

    What other options did they have? I don't generally carry much rope in the car or my bag, and honestly, I'm not going to start for the really rare situations where I might need it. I don't carry a flotation device, either. Now, especially with the fire department on scene, could we improvise something? I sure hope so.

    But there's still that safety issue to consider...

    A couple years back, Virginia State Police chased a dumbass who bailed on a bridge, and jumped into the water. This being like January or February, the water and the air was colder than shit. The trooper showed some quick thinking, in my opinion, and threw his jack in after the kid to mark the spot for the divers. He stayed out of the water himself -- though there are those who would argue he should have. Had the trooper gone in after the kid, he'd likely have been dead within minutes, just like the kid.
    Voting against incumbents until we get a Congress that does its job.

    TASER: almost as good as alcohol for teaching white boys to dance

    "Don't suffer from PTSD -- Go out and cause it!"
    -- Col. David Grossman, US Army, ret.

    All opinions expressed are my own and are not official statements of my employer.

  13. #13
    121Traffic's Avatar
    121Traffic is offline Just Us
    Verified LEO
    Site Moderator
    Join Date
    01-09-06
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    4,547
    Rep Power
    6332993
    Quote Originally Posted by lewisipso View Post
    Well here is my .02. CB and I aren't trained in any water rescue either but that didn't stop us. The Mississippi may not have been 53 degrees but it sure was pretty damn chilly. Our victim was in neck deep water when she finally went out. Although we did not have to go that deep to get her we did not know that when we decided to go.
    I think therein lies the difference. Victim vs. a suicidal? I'm willing to bet that every one of those first responders would have tried SOME thing to rescue someone who wanted the help. I think a rope or ResQ disc would have been about the only thing I would have tried in this situation. I have 0 experience in water rescue. There's no way I would have gone in for this guy either. Rescue techniques are designed for those welcoming the salvation. They aren't designed for someone who's going to be fighting the whole time.
    "If anything worthwhile comes of this tragedy, it should be the realization by every citizen that often the only thing that stands between them and losing everything they hold dear... is the man wearing a badge." -- Ronald Reagan, in the wake of the deaths of 4 CHP troopers in the Newhall Incident, 1970

    The opinions given in my posts DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "121Traffic" on O/R.

  14. #14
    lewisipso's Avatar
    lewisipso is offline Injustice/Indifference/In God we trust
    Supporting Member Lvl 3
    Verified LEO
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    02-02-07
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    14,725
    Rep Power
    6962511
    I did say victim but I should have stated suicidal. We tried to talk her out until she went limp. At that point we said fuck it and went in. Again, that's just the choice we made.
    Do not war for peace. If you must war, war for justice. For without justice there is no peace. -me

    We are who we choose to be.

    R.I.P. Arielle. 08/20/2010-09/16/2012


  15. #15
    jmur5074's Avatar
    jmur5074 is offline Moderator
    Premium Lifetime Member
    Verified LEO
    Site Moderator
    Join Date
    12-04-05
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    9,051
    Rep Power
    6232623
    Quote Originally Posted by lewisipso View Post
    I did say victim but I should have stated suicidal. We tried to talk her out until she went limp. At that point we said fuck it and went in. Again, that's just the choice we made.
    The only action (or inaction) that I don't agree with is not beginning a rescue effort after he fell unconscious. I think it's kind of sad that a bystander swam out and brought his body in while first responders/rescuers stood by.

    Like 121 said, I wouldn't have gone out there and gotten him. I would have thrown a rope, or the round lifesaver in my trunk. But that's about it.

    One thing that's worth considering is the risk involved. Firefighters and police officers obviously take risks in the course of their employment. But there is a fine line between taking a risk, and taking an unnecessary risk.

    Without the proper training and proper equipment, going out there and grabbing this suicidal man would be an unnecessary risk.
    No one has greater love than this, to lay down ones life for ones friends - John 15:13

    "The Wicked Flee When No Man Pursueth: But The Righteous Are Bold As A Lion".

    We lucky few, we band of brothers. For he who today sheds his blood with me shall be my brother.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
    The opinions, beliefs, and ideas expressed in this post are mine, and mine alone. They are NOT the opinions, beliefs, ideas, or policies of my Agency, Police Chief, City Council, or any member of my department.

  16. #16
    Five-0's Avatar
    Five-0 is offline Super Moderator
    Premium Lifetime Member
    Verified LEO
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    05-15-06
    Posts
    10,982
    Rep Power
    8357019
    Quote Originally Posted by jmur5074 View Post
    The only action (or inaction) that I don't agree with is not beginning a rescue effort after he fell unconscious. I think it's kind of sad that a bystander swam out and brought his body in while first responders/rescuers stood by.


    Without the proper training and proper equipment, going out there and grabbing this suicidal man would be an unnecessary risk.

    Agree on both points above in particular. Rope onto the rescuer is prudent given the temp of the water even if this was a victim. I don't look like it now, but I used to be a lifeguard. Rescuing someone that wants to be saved in comfortable water is not always easy. 300 lbs of suicide is that unnecessary you are talking about. 50 degree water is a rude awakening and a shock even if you are prepared for it. One of us stripping off duty gear, vest, and boots is not prepared. Once he is unconscious, yeah personally I get him, let medics try to revive him, and I take the rest of the day at the house. Someone can talk to me about policy the next day.

    Meanwhile, fishing in Russia:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." -- Frederic Bastiat

    "Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter." Ernest Hemingway

    The opinions given in my signatures & threads DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "Five-0" on Officerresource.com

  17. #17
    McCrackhd's Avatar
    McCrackhd is offline Master Officer
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    12-08-10
    Location
    Mobile (Original home of Mardi Gras)
    Posts
    498
    Rep Power
    456723
    My question is this: I understand that the CG couldn't get a boat into that shallow of water. But don't they carry the proper equipment on thier boats for cold water rescue? Could they not have at least sent someone to the scene on shore to get him out? Or get the boat as close as possible, then send some people in?
    YOUR ATTENTION, DO I F@#%ING HAVE IT?


    I swear to Christ, if I survive this I'm gonna dance a jig!

    RMFT-Bama fans get it

    The views and opinions expressed on this site are not mine. They belong to my alter ego, Mathazar. Therefore, only Mathazar and his two brothers should be held responsible for the crap that is posted on this site under my name.

  18. #18
    HudsonHawk's Avatar
    HudsonHawk is offline Moderator
    Premium Lifetime Member
    Verified LEO
    Site Moderator
    Join Date
    01-17-06
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,536
    Rep Power
    1710441
    While I respect the thought to attempt a rope rescue, the video from the news site noted that the man was neck deep in water and about 100 yards from shore. I doubt anyone had a rope that long.
    "never bring paws to a gunfight" - Jenna

  19. #19
    sgtbear111's Avatar
    sgtbear111 is offline retired
    Verified LEO
    Join Date
    02-23-07
    Location
    Eastern Washington
    Posts
    1,096
    Rep Power
    1013301
    Procedures and processes. If it doesn't fit, do nothing. The Monday-Morning quarterbacks (i.e. suits and white shirts) do not want innovation if it conflicts with the "book", thus requiring a bit of original decision making. After all, no respectable policy manual offers no sanctuary or support to the employee who acts outside of the box. I wonder if the word "liability" was tossed about while this incident unfolded. Let us not allow reality to usurp the process of becoming "accredited."

    As for rope, get some cheap 3/8 floating poly rope at WalMart or a discount hardware outlet. Find a spool to keep it put away but ready to deploy without snarling. (Ask the store clerk for an empty spool from the rope and chain display racks.) Get enough rope to tie off to a tree or to your push bars, use a plastic gallon water jug for a throwing weight and a float. Put snaps or climbing carabiners securely on the rope ends, because those tied-in-a-hurry wet knots always work loose on plastic rope.

    Those who patrol or visit beaches, parks, lakes, rivers, may have a need for something like that, since summer is drowning season. Keep your eyes on the kids near the water. If you have ever come out of the water carrying a dead or unconscious child, you know about drownings. If you go in alone, deputize a sober citizen who can swim, to act as your safety spotter. As said before, a suicide or panicked swimmer will fight you.

    I'm retired 9 years but still carry 100 ft of 1/2" soft nylon rope in a zip-up gym bag in my pickup. A large thermos makes a good throw weight and float.
    Some people come into our lives and quickly go. Some stay for awhile and leave footprints on our hearts. And we are never, ever the same.-- Anonymous

    Old People, like me, may not be around to witness the destruction of our Nation. The rest of you may not survive the collapse. We all have the sworn duty to prevent it.

    The light of hope burns brighter than the fires of doom.

  20. #20
    MacLean's Avatar
    MacLean is offline O/R Gun mod
    Verified LEO
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    09-05-07
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    11,803
    Rep Power
    4584773
    Quote Originally Posted by HudsonHawk View Post
    While I respect the thought to attempt a rope rescue, the video from the news site noted that the man was neck deep in water and about 100 yards from shore. I doubt anyone had a rope that long.
    Respectfully to all of you - many of you I call friends and brothers.

    I signed up to risk my life, to gamble with it that others may live.

    I'm not suicidal, and I teach officer safety/tactics/firearms.

    I'd still have tried.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



 

 
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •