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  1. #1
    TXCharlie's Avatar
    TXCharlie is offline Former & Future Reserve Officer
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    Question Shooting at Car Dealership by Employee Asked to Work Security

    Oh, boy... After recently taking armed security training, this raises all sorts of questions for me about whether or not the dealership & employee were licensed with the Texas PSB to engage in this little arrangement. For the guard's sake, the guy had better been running out the door with pocketfuls of money, or had some better excuse than presented here

    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...1.3e86543.html

    Family questions police account of shooting

    Lewisville: Guard told officials man broke into dealership; kin doubt it

    06:28 AM CDT on Friday, October 20, 2006

    By KIMBERLY DURNAN and BRANDON FORMBY / The Dallas Morning News

    Family members of a 19-year-old man who was shot to death at a Lewisville car dealership are questioning a police account that suggests he was trying to burglarize his place of employment.

    Police who were called to the Toyota of Lewisville dealership early Wednesday found the body of Frank Adam Herbert of Flower Mound outside the building. He had been shot twice in the back, according to the Tarrant County medical examiner's office.

    An employee for the company, who does not usually work as a security guard but had been asked to do so that night, told police that Mr. Herbert had broken into the building about 1:30 a.m. and was stealing money, according to police and the dealership's Dallas attorney.

    Jessica Herbert of Rochelle, Ill., said Thursday that her brother had worked as a salesman at the dealership in the 1500 block of Stemmons Freeway for about eight months.

    "He went into the building to retrieve some belongings, which makes me believe he has a key," she said. "He would never break in. He had nothing on him. He was not armed. This wasn't a burglary."

    Public records checks found no criminal record for Mr. Herbert.

    Ms. Herbert said her brother grew up in Rochelle but finished his last three years of high school in Flower Mound. She said he loved football and at one time played for the minor-league Dallas Knights.

    "He had a lot of character and a big heart," she said. "He definitely embraced life with humor. He wouldn't hurt a fly, and he had the kindest soul. He was just a sweetheart, and our hearts are broken."

    Lewisville police Officer Richard Douglass said he could not confirm that Mr. Herbert worked at the dealership.

    An attorney for the dealership, Brian D. Melton, did not return phone calls or e-mails Thursday. However, in a statement released Wednesday, he contended that the dealership had been burglarized recently.

    "The unknown intruder was caught breaking into a cash register inside the darkened building, and was shot only after he refused to stop," Mr. Melton said. "The intruder was wearing a hood which concealed his face."

    Officer Douglass said the initial report indicated that Mr. Herbert was inside the showroom building when an employee acting as a security guard confronted him.

    "He started trying to move around and hide or run, and that's when the security person shot him," Officer Douglass said. "We found him just outside the doors."

    He said he would not discuss whether Mr. Herbert had any of the dealership's money or property on him when he was found.

    The investigation was being treated as a homicide, Officer Douglass said.

    "We'll gather all the evidence, the facts and everything else," he said. "They're going to send it up to the [Denton County district attorney] and present it to the grand jury."

    At the dealership on Thursday, employees said they didn't know any details about the shooting. General sales manager Gary Gray said all they had heard was that an intruder had been shot.

    "No one actually knows what really happened," he said.
    Last edited by TXCharlie; 10-27-06 at 09:59 PM.

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  2. #2
    10-42Adam's Avatar
    10-42Adam is offline Major
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    "No one actually knows what really happened."

    Well, I think I found step one, boys. And that's find out what happened.
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    slamdunc's Avatar
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    I'd say the dealership is going to pay plenty to the family. The salesman / security gurad is probably going to prison. Negligent entrustment, failure to train, etc.
    'The Art of War' teaches us to "Rely not on the likelihood of the enemy's coming, but on our own readiness to receive him"--Sun Tsu

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    TXCOP's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure it won't be Toyota of Lewisville for much longer. Herbert Toyota has a nice ring to it, don't you think?
    "Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you.
    He is training with minimum food or water, in austere conditions, day and night.
    The only thing clean on him is his weapon.
    He doesn't worry about what workout to do---his rucksack weighs what it weighs, and he runs until the enemy stops chasing him.
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    Nah it will stay the same name, its just one certain family will have new Toyotas every year for life!!!

    There is alot of questions to be answered here. One big one is why was he there at 1:30am?? I would say from initial impression, just from what is written, is the guard is wrong. Shooting in the back and nothing listed of a weapon on the other guy. Sorry doesn't fly, but I will reserve final judgements till I know more of the facts.
    "An Unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." Jeff Cooper


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  6. #6
    TXCharlie's Avatar
    TXCharlie is offline Former & Future Reserve Officer
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    Nah it will stay the same name, its just one certain family will have new Toyotas every year for life!!!

    There is alot of questions to be answered here. One big one is why was he there at 1:30am?? I would say from initial impression, just from what is written, is the guard is wrong. Shooting in the back and nothing listed of a weapon on the other guy. Sorry doesn't fly, but I will reserve final judgements till I know more of the facts.
    In Texas, the Penal Code does justify use of Deadly Force to stop a theft at night or burglary, or to prevent someone from escaping with property afterwards... HOWEVER THERE ARE CAVIATS, and that pesky little word "reasonable" is scattered throughout the Penal Code.

    In that situation faced by the guard I would have no hesitancy in pulling my gun, because burglars represent a probable threat - but using it is another story unless the burglar raises the level of violence in resisting citizens' arrest.

    I think the only good reason for a citizen (including guards) to shoot someone is in self-defense or 3rd-party defense, and shooting them in the back doesn't look good for a self-defense case. But it remains to be seen whether or not it was technically justified under Texas criminal law. Only a Grand Jury or Trial Jury can determine that.

    I would say that there's a 100% probability that the guard will be charged and will face a Grand Jury, and the dealership & guard are gonna face one Hell of a Civil lawsuit.
    Last edited by TXCharlie; 10-29-06 at 11:50 AM.

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  7. #7
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    "I think the only good reason for a citizen (including guards) to shoot someone is in self-defense or 3rd-party defense, and shooting them in the back doesn't look good for a self-defense case."


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  8. #8
    TXCharlie's Avatar
    TXCharlie is offline Former & Future Reserve Officer
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    Oh yeah... Self defense and bad manors

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