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  1. #1
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    Students taught to attack if gunman appears

    BURLESON, Texas - Youngsters in a suburban Fort Worth school district are being taught not to sit there like good boys and girls with their hands folded if a gunman invades the classroom, but to rush him and hit him with everything they've got — books, pencils, legs and arms.

    “Getting under desks and praying for rescue from professionals is not a recipe for success,” said Robin Browne, a major in the British Army reserve and an instructor for Response Options, the company providing the training to the Burleson schools.

    That kind of fight-back advice is all but unheard of among schools, and some fear it will get children killed.

    But school officials in Burleson said they are drawing on the lessons learned from a string of disasters such as Columbine in 1999 and the Amish schoolhouse attack in Pennsylvania last week.

    The school system in this working-class suburb of about 26,000 is believed to be the first in the nation to train all its teachers and students to fight back, Browne said.

    At Burleson — which has 10 schools and about 8,500 students — the training covers various emergencies, such as tornadoes, fires and situations where first aid is required. Among the lessons: Use a belt as a sling for broken bones, and shoelaces make good tourniquets.

    Students are also instructed not to comply with a gunman’s orders, and to take him down.

    Aim for head
    Browne recommends students and teachers “react immediately to the sight of a gun by picking up anything and everything and throwing it at the head and body of the attacker and making as much noise as possible. Go toward him as fast as we can and bring them down.”

    Response Options trains students and teachers to “lock onto the attacker’s limbs and use their body weight,” Browne said. Everyday classroom objects, such as paperbacks and pencils, can become weapons.

    “We show them they can win,” he said. “The fact that someone walks into a classroom with a gun does not make them a god. Five or six seventh-grade kids and a 95-pound art teacher can basically challenge, bring down and immobilize a 200-pound man with a gun.”

    The fight-back training parallels the change in thinking that has occurred since Sept. 11, when United Flight 93 made it clear that the usual advice during a hijacking — Don’t try to be a hero, and no one will get hurt — no longer holds. Flight attendants and passengers are now encouraged to rush the cockpit.

    Similarly, women and youngsters are often told by safety experts to kick, scream and claw their way out during a rape attempt or a child-snatching.

    In 1998 in Oregon, a 17-year-old high school wrestling star with a bullet in his chest stopped a rampage by tackling a teenager who had opened fire in the cafeteria. The gunman killed two students, as well as his parents, and 22 other were wounded.

    Will kids have common sense?
    Hilda Quiroz of the National School Safety Center, a nonprofit advocacy group in California, said she knows of no other school system in the country that is offering fight-back training, and found the strategy at Burleson troubling.

    “If kids are saved, then this is the most wonderful thing in the world. If kids are killed, people are going to wonder who’s to blame,” she said. “How much common sense will a student have in a time of panic?”

    Terry Grisham, spokesman for the Tarrant County Sheriff’s Department, said he, too, had concerns, though he had not seen details of the program.

    “You’re telling kids to do what a tactical officer is trained to do, and they have a lot of guns and ballistic shields,” he said. “If my school was teaching that, I’d be upset, frankly.”

    Some students said they appreciate the training.

    “It’s harder to hit a moving target than a target that is standing still,” said 14-year-old Jessica Justice, who received the training over the summer during freshman orientation at Burleson High.

    Lesson from Columbine
    William Lassiter, manager of the North Carolina-based Center for Prevention of School Violence, said past attacks indicate that fighting back, at least by teachers and staff, has its merits.

    “At Columbine, teachers told students to get down and get on the floors, and gunmen went around and shot people on the floors,” Lassiter said. “I know this sounds chaotic and I know it doesn’t sound like a great solution, but it’s better than leaving them there to get shot.”

    Lassiter questioned, however, whether students should be included in the fight-back training: “That’s going to scare the you-know-what out of them.”

    Most of the freshman class at Burleson’s high school underwent instruction during orientation, and eventually all Burleson students will receive some training, even the elementary school children.

    “We want them to know if Miss Valley says to run out of the room screaming, that is exactly what they need to do,” said Jeanie Gilbert, district director of emergency management. She said students and teachers should have “a fighting chance in every situation.”

    “It’s terribly sad that when I get up in the morning that I have to wonder what may happen today either in our area or in the nation,” Gilbert said. “Something that happens in Pennsylvania has that ripple effect across the country.”

    Burleson High Principal Paul Cash said he has received no complaints from parents about the training. Stacy Vaughn, the president of the Parent-Teacher Organization at Norwood Elementary in Burleson, supports the program.

    “I feel like our kids should be armed with the information that these types of possibilities exist,” Vaughn said.


  2. #2
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    you have got to be kidding me...
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    Shoelaces make terrible tourniquets. The flesh swells either side and make them almost impossible to release. Tourniquets should be at least 2 inches wide. Their Web Site isn't very good either.
    Last edited by Trojan 42; 10-28-06 at 04:52 AM.
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    hmm... not too sure how I feel about this...

    Seems to me if someone walks in intending to take hostages and gets charged by 3 dozen students, a bloodbath could easily occur, whereas if everyone cooperated and stalled for time, SWAT couldve went in and taken the guy out...

    but then again, if its obvious that the guy wants nothing but blood, there's no sense in just sitting there, patiently waiting for your turn to die... might as well kill the motherfucker ASAP before he kills everyone else

    I say we put armed guards in every school and bulletproof doors on every classroom and call it good for now. ...its pretty fucked up that we have to do that, but we really cant expect 5th graders to defend themselves against a MAC-10, can we?
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    I've heard stories of these Texas-football lovin' folks holding back their kids a grade or two to gain an advantage on the field, maybe this would work here too. A bunch of 6'6" 275lb+ 6th graders rushing all at once, they might be on to something.

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    My question is, now that this is known to the public thanks to the media, do you think someone will actually put it to the test to get their chance in the spotlight?
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    I too have mixed feelings about this, and the first time it's put to the test its going to be bad.

    By this I mean if they rush and some get killed the media will question that if they didn't rush would they be alive? If they don't rush and some get killed the media will do the opposit, if they had rushed would they be alive?

    It's now a no win situation for all concerned.

    Here are some of my solutions;

    1) Have all female and all males schools only, or at least one sex classrooms. Cuts down on distractions and cuts down on single out behaviour.

    2) Equip all schools with armed guards and metal detectors. All doors are locked in the school during operating hours. And by all doors I mean inside and outside. If they are all the push bar doors then if there is an emergency anyone inside can get out quickly, but noone can come in without permission.

    3) All students and staff of schools are to have picture Id's and must wear these on the outside of the clothing up near the lapel of the shirt so its fully visible.

    4) All parents/Family of students must register with the school and also get a picture ID worn in the same fashion as the students. These ID's must be so worn when picking up students, dropping them off, or attending any function at the school during or after hours.

    5) All personnel coming on the school grounds must first stop at a Guard station and register themselves and their vehicle. The Guard will then notify the front office of the presence of a visitor on premise.

    I know this is somewhat drastic, but drastic times calls for drastic measures.

    Just my .02 Cents worth
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    I like this idea actually CLICK HERE


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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    By this I mean if they rush and some get killed the media will question that if they didn't rush would they be alive? If they don't rush and some get killed the media will do the opposit, if they had rushed would they be alive?
    I'm all for this idea. If I were a parent, I'd be happier knowing my child died fighting back or trying to get away than just laying there like a nice little lamb to the slaughter. But that's me...


    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    It's now a no win situation for all concerned.
    What? You mean before it wasn't a no-win situation?


    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    Here are some of my solutions;

    1) Have all female and all males schools only, or at least one sex classrooms. Cuts down on distractions and cuts down on single out behaviour.
    Please. Most social interaction (and subsequent singling out of kids) occurs in the hallways, before and after school, and on the buses. At least it did when I was in school. While in class we didn't have the opprotunity to for socializing because, strangely enough, classes were being taught. Unless they don't do that kind of thing anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    2) Equip all schools with armed guards and metal detectors. All doors are locked in the school during operating hours. And by all doors I mean inside and outside. If they are all the push bar doors then if there is an emergency anyone inside can get out quickly, but noone can come in without permission.
    Every report I've read on school shootings have indicated this would not have helped. Especially those two kids in OK who popped teachers and students with a rifle as school let out.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    3) All students and staff of schools are to have picture Id's and must wear these on the outside of the clothing up near the lapel of the shirt so its fully visible.
    Yes. So that will keep them from getting shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    4) All parents/Family of students must register with the school and also get a picture ID worn in the same fashion as the students. These ID's must be so worn when picking up students, dropping them off, or attending any function at the school during or after hours.
    Ditto above.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    5) All personnel coming on the school grounds must first stop at a Guard station and register themselves and their vehicle. The Guard will then notify the front office of the presence of a visitor on premise.
    I have not heard of one shooting before the Amish school where the attacker was NOT a registered student. At least none comes to mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    I know this is somewhat drastic, but drastic times calls for drastic measures.
    You say that, but you don't condone our children and teachers learning how to fight back? How odd...

    I think teachers not-so randomly selected should be trained to use firearms and have them concealed on their person at all times. Then make it known to everyone that there are random teachers that are armed. That way if there was another attack, the bad guy would face the chance that one of his victims would shoot back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhino View Post
    I think teachers not-so randomly selected should be trained to use firearms and have them concealed on their person at all times. Then make it known to everyone that there are random teachers that are armed. That way if there was another attack, the bad guy would face the chance that one of his victims would shoot back.
    Im all for it
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    Talking Re-post

    http://www.lawenforcementforums.com/...d.php?p=105446

    I think selected teachers should be trained in a police academy-like class and armed, the way airline pilots were.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trojan 42 View Post
    Shoelaces make terrible tourniquets. The flesh swells either side and make them almost impossible to release. Tourniquets should be at least 2 inches wide. Their Web Site isn't very good either.
    In CERT (Community Emergency Response Team) class, we're taught not to use tourniquets at all because they're a sure way to loose a limb - Direct preassure is our only approved method to stop bleeding, but there are new sponges with clotting chemicals that should be part of every first-aid kit (don't have the same problems as the older granulated stuff - I forgot what they called it).
    Last edited by TXCharlie; 10-29-06 at 01:06 PM.

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    Rhino you misunderstood me. Im all for the teaching of fighting back, 100%.

    When I said its a no win situation I meant in the eys of media. They will spin it in the opposit direction no matter what was done, as they do now.

    Yes I know some of the ideas wouldnt have stopped alot of the shootings, but lets face it its the same as terroists. If they want to do it they will find a way, all we can do is put up deterents and possibly some barriors. This is just like a burgular alarm, every one in LE knows this only a deterent. The professional brugular won't get scared off by an alarm.

    I also think that some teachers should be armed. But they need to be chosen carefully and taught how to retain the weapon. It won't take long for the students to know who is armed, then all they need to do is disarm the teacher and they have a weapon in school.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    Rhino you misunderstood me. Im all for the teaching of fighting back, 100%.

    When I said its a no win situation I meant in the eys of media. They will spin it in the opposit direction no matter what was done, as they do now.
    No doubt. Sorry for the misunderstanding...
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    Quote Originally Posted by TXCharlie View Post

    In CERT (Community Emergency Response Team) class, we're taught not to use tourniquets at all because they're a sure way to loose a limb - Direct pressure is our only approved method to stop bleeding, but there are new sponges with clotting chemicals that should be part of every first-aid kit (don't have the same problems as the older granulated stuff - I forgot what they called it).
    Oh, I agree. Tourniquets are not taught in normal First Aid classes here either. But in more advanced situations they can/do have a place. Traumatic Amputations can be difficult to deal with by direct pressure alone, especially if the amputation is close to where you would apply Indirect Pressure on a pressure point. We had a lot of experience improvising First Aid on the streets of London because of the IRA. Disposable Nappies (Diapers to you Colonials) and Sanitary Towels saved a few lives, having been 'stolen' from nearby shops.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg3533 View Post
    I too have mixed feelings about this, and the first time it's put to the test its going to be bad.

    By this I mean if they rush and some get killed the media will question that if they didn't rush would they be alive? If they don't rush and some get killed the media will do the opposit, if they had rushed would they be alive?

    It's now a no win situation for all concerned.

    Here are some of my solutions;

    1) Have all female and all males schools only, or at least one sex classrooms. Cuts down on distractions and cuts down on single out behaviour.

    2) Equip all schools with armed guards and metal detectors. All doors are locked in the school during operating hours. And by all doors I mean inside and outside. If they are all the push bar doors then if there is an emergency anyone inside can get out quickly, but noone can come in without permission.

    3) All students and staff of schools are to have picture Id's and must wear these on the outside of the clothing up near the lapel of the shirt so its fully visible.

    4) All parents/Family of students must register with the school and also get a picture ID worn in the same fashion as the students. These ID's must be so worn when picking up students, dropping them off, or attending any function at the school during or after hours.

    5) All personnel coming on the school grounds must first stop at a Guard station and register themselves and their vehicle. The Guard will then notify the front office of the presence of a visitor on premise.

    I know this is somewhat drastic, but drastic times calls for drastic measures.

    Just my .02 Cents worth
    Responses:
    1) WTF? There have been times in my life that the only thing that kept me from going off was fraternizing with the better sex and just dreaming about playing with those pretty little ladies. Co-Ed schools have probably prevented hundreds of shootings!
    2) Good luck getting that past the Fire Marshal and also, WHO is gonna pay for all these Security Guards? They are not free! BTW, most schools that have Security Guards do not allow them to be armed. So, if something happens, what is going to happen? The fucking Security Guard is going to call 911. Uh, What's the purpose? The janitor knows the number too.
    3) I agree totally.
    4) I agree totally.
    5) I agree partially. Once again, who is going to pay for the guards and how exactly are they going to stop two or three assailants with AK-47's? "Stop and let me see your school ID........BLAM! Okay stop. Or else I'll say stop again!"

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    Everything above elementary school here already has that ID system in place, for students, teachers and staff, and all others have to register at the office and show ID before being issued a visitor's pass. The problem is, we're not exactly talking about walled in campuses, so there's several points of entry.

    Short of going to DoD type reinforced campuses, someone would always be able to slip in. And seeing as the schools are perpetually strapped for funding, even for just the basics needed for teaching, I don't see it happening. Here, the teachers often pay out of pocket for some classroom supplies. Shelling out extra for ID scanners with password verification just doesn't seem to be on the list.
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    Amen, Ducky. And there are numerous other variables to consider. How about a bomb threat where they start to evac and the sniper picks them off as they come out? A case in the eighties in Oregon, I believe, where the suspect set a car on fire in a small town as a diversion and then walked in and gunned down eight kids. The scenarios are endless. It's just like the terrorist thing, do you want to live in a walled society where you cannot take a piss without photo ID? Or do you want to live in a free land where we settle for some degree of danger and risk, but you just need to have some common sense and raise your kids the same way? I'll take the latter. Can you imagine what it's like in Israel to just go to the store for bread knowing you might get blown up. But those people don't whine, they just drive on and thank God for what they have. We need more of that here. Sorry for the diatribe.

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    Or how about a bomb threat that's a real bomb and no warning is given? It would be just that simple.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ducky View Post
    Or how about a bomb threat that's a real bomb and no warning is given? It would be just that simple.
    Or a bomb threat where they state where the bomb is....faculty starts to evac through another door and the real bomb is there! BOOM. There are a million scenarios that need to be considered and trained to prepare for. The bottom line is preparation. Cops, parents, students and staff all need to talk to each other and find some halfway reasonable game plan for such issues.

    Waiting until it happens because of the "It won't happen here." attitude will only get people killed. The other extreme is the paramilitary, gun-toting teachers manning machine gun nests on the roof and janitors driving APC's patrolling the mine field around the school.

    Can't we just find something in between that is not only comfortable but secure?

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    After the years of BS socialist engineering in the class rooms, telling students violance etc., is wrong, blah blah, most of them wouldn't know how to fight back. We have NO WIN games so the kids wouldn't feel bad about losing, be a "goody-goody two shoes" on the football field. Christ, a bully picks on you wipe his ass, but NO, go to the principal and they will put you both in anger management training. We are raising a bunch of wimps, they wouldn't know how to FIGHT back. They have been engineered (educated) into sheep.

 

 
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