Welcome to the APBWeb.
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 25
  1. #1
    Terminator's Avatar
    Terminator is offline BANNED
    Join Date
    12-03-05
    Location
    None of your business
    Posts
    16,064
    Rep Power
    0

    Modesto Priest Urges Obama Supporters To Confess

    MODESTO (AP) ― A Roman Catholic priest has told parishioners they should confess if they voted for Barack Obama because the president-elect supports abortion.

    The Rev. Joseph Illo says his parishioners at St. Joseph's Catholic Church in Modesto shouldn't risk losing their "state of grace" by receiving communion sacrilegiously. He delivered the message in a Nov. 21 letter and during mass.

    In an interview this week with the Modesto Bee, Illo says he sent the letter because Catholic teaching requires that people go to confession when they commit a mortal sin.

  2. #2
    CTR man's Avatar
    CTR man is offline Officer First Class
    Supporting Member Lvl 3
    Join Date
    05-20-06
    Location
    Ceres, CA
    Posts
    4,965
    Rep Power
    1169036
    I just knew that this would get posted here. I saw this in Thursdays paper, just yesterday. Here's a link to the article.

    http://www.modbee.com/1618/story/515762.html

    http://www.modbee.com/local/story/515762-p2.html

    St. Joseph's Father Illo says state of grace could be at risk
    By Sue Nowicki
    snowicki@modbee.com
    last updated: November 29, 2008 02:20:20 AM

    Parishioners of St. Joseph's Catholic Church in Modesto have been told they should consider going to confession if they voted for Barack Obama, because of the president-elect's position condoning abortion.

    "If you are one of the 54 percent of Catholics who voted for a pro-abortion candidate, you were clear on his position and you knew the gravity of the question, I urge you to go to confession before receiving communion. Don't risk losing your state of grace by receiving sacrilegiously," the Rev. Joseph Illo, pastor of St. Joseph's, wrote in a letter dated Nov. 21.

    The letter was sent to more than 15,000 members of the St. Joseph's parish. It is one of 34 parishes in the Stockton Diocese, which has more than 200,000 members in Stanislaus, San Joaquin and four other counties.

    Illo also delivered this message in a homily.

    Though Obama's support of abortion rights angered many Catholics nationally during the campaign, Illo's letter is believed to be the first in Central California from a priest to his parishioners on the topic.

    The Most Rev. Stephen Blaire, bishop of the Stockton Diocese, disagrees with Illo. He said Catholics should not feel compelled to disclose how they voted to their priest.

    Blaire said Catholics who carefully weighed many issues and settled on a candidate, such as Obama, who was supportive of abortion rights, were not in need of confession. He said confession would be necessary "only if someone voted for a pro-abortion or pro-choice candidate -- if that's the reason you voted for them."

    "Our position on pro-life is very important, but there are other issues," Blaire said. "No one candidate reflects everything that we stand for. I'm sure that most Catholics who voted were voting on economic issues.

    "There were probably many priests, and I suspect many bishops, who voted for Obama."

    Illo's letter states, "Many Catholics voted for such pro-abortion candidates thinking that their good positions on other issues, such as the war or health care, outweighed their deplorable stand on abortion."

    Illo also wrote that Obama "promised Planned Parenthood that the first thing he would do upon taking office is to sign the so-called 'Freedom of Choice Act,' which would grant unlimited access to abortion in all 50 states up until the moment of live birth."

    Illo, in an interview Wednesday, explained his reasoning.

    "In Catholic teaching, you have to go to confession when you have committed a mortal sin," he said. "Now, what is a mortal sin? It's somewhat complex. No one can say, 'You committed a mortal sin.' I can only say, 'It's a grave matter.' It's my job to look after my parishioners.

    "I've gotten a lot of e-mails and phone calls. It's about 12-to-1 in favor of what I said. One person has left the parish. But I got all of these other positive things."

    Across the country, Obama's nomination and campaign was divisive for many Catholics. Many priests and church officials sermonized against him because of his stance on abortion, as they did four years ago when Democratic John Kerry challenged President Bush. There were Catholic-inspired anti-Obama videos on YouTube regarding the issue.

    In a story published in October in the Chicago Tribune, Joe Scheidler, president of the Pro-Life Action League, said it was hypocritical for any Catholic to vote for Obama -- even if they agreed with his positions on other health care topics.

    "There are a lot of ways you can solve poverty and all these other issues," Scheidler said. "But abortion is the taking of a human life, and the church is very strict on that. Any involvement in abortion is not just a sin, it's an excommunicable sin. This is serious business."

    But some loyal to the church disagreed. Patrick Whelan is one of the founders of Catholic Democrats, which supported Obama and other Democratic candidates in the election.

    "I feel that every Catholic can vote for Obama in good conscience," Whelan told the Tribune. "I think Barack Obama is the first Democratic presidential candidate who has come out and said he plans constructive measures to reduce the number of abortions in the United States."

    National exit polling after the Nov. 4 election shows most Catholic voters rejected the hard-line position as 54 percent of them voted for Obama and 45 percent for John McCain, the Republican nominee.

    A week after the election, a number of high-profile Catholic bishops meeting in Baltimore signaled they intend to work with the president-elect on issues such as immigration and health, but remain strongly opposed to his position on abortion.

    During the meeting, The Boston Globe reported, the bishops for the first time approved a new "blessing of a child in the womb," which could be said by priests for pregnant women.

    Archbishop Joseph Kurtz of Louisville called the blessing "a very tangible way of us to witness, pastorally and sacramentally, the life of the unborn child."

    Bishop Arthur Serratelli, of Paterson, N.J., said, "It is important to reaffirm and focus our attention on the life of the unborn."

    American Cardinal Frank Stafford, formerly archbishop of Denver and now assigned to the Vatican, called Obama's election "apocalyptic" during a speech Nov. 14 at Catholic University in Washington, D.C. "On Nov. 4, 2008," he added, "America suffered a cultural earthquake."


    Choose The Right. When you're doing whats right, then you have nothing to worry about.

    Not a LEO

    In memory of Sgt. Howard K. Stevenson 1965 - 2005. Ceres Police Dept.
    In memory of Robert N. Panos 1955 - 2008 Ceres Police Dept.









  3. #3
    Xiphos's Avatar
    Xiphos is offline I Void Warranties
    Verified LEO
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    03-09-08
    Location
    Thermopylae
    Posts
    8,378
    Rep Power
    7772239
    The Catholic Church teaches that abortion is objectively a grave sin, and supporting abortion is participation in that sin. It is scandalous for Catholics to support abortion. The priest is 100% correct.

    If you disagree with the church quit calling yourself Catholic. I wouldn't dream of becoming a member of any church and then telling them they're wrong.
    Pleasing nobody, one person at a time.

    That which does not kill me, better start fucking running.

    If I lived every day like it was my last, the body count would be staggering.

    I intend to go in harm's way. -John Paul Jones

    Hunt the wolf, and bring light to the dark places that others fear to go. LT COL Dave Grossman

  4. #4
    Jenna's Avatar
    Jenna is offline sheep
    Premium Lifetime Member
    Join Date
    06-11-06
    Posts
    24,370
    Rep Power
    4817857
    Quote Originally Posted by Xiphos View Post
    The Catholic Church teaches that abortion is objectively a grave sin, and supporting abortion is participation in that sin. It is scandalous for Catholics to support abortion. The priest is 100% correct.

    If you disagree with the church quit calling yourself Catholic. I wouldn't dream of becoming a member of any church and then telling them they're wrong.
    What if Obama had wanted to make abortion illegal and McCain had wanted to keep abortion legal, but everything else about them had remained the same? Would you have voted for Obama?

  5. #5
    Xiphos's Avatar
    Xiphos is offline I Void Warranties
    Verified LEO
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    03-09-08
    Location
    Thermopylae
    Posts
    8,378
    Rep Power
    7772239
    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    What if Obama had wanted to make abortion illegal and McCain had wanted to keep abortion legal, but everything else about them had remained the same? Would you have voted for Obama?
    The church doesn't say you have to vote for Republicans, it just says you aren't supposed to support intrinsic evil. I would vote for a third party candidate if I needed to, and have done so in the past.

    In the case where all the candidates are pro-death you can vote for the least evil since you don't have any other choice.

    In the choice you gave me I would have voted for a third party.

    I don't care if everyone agrees with me or the church. But don't call yourself a Catholic and deny some of the most basic and important teachings of the church.
    Pleasing nobody, one person at a time.

    That which does not kill me, better start fucking running.

    If I lived every day like it was my last, the body count would be staggering.

    I intend to go in harm's way. -John Paul Jones

    Hunt the wolf, and bring light to the dark places that others fear to go. LT COL Dave Grossman

  6. #6
    MacLean's Avatar
    MacLean is offline O/R Gun mod
    Verified LEO
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    09-05-07
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    11,802
    Rep Power
    4584773
    I agree with Xiphos, which is why I left the Church.

    (not over abortion, however)
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  7. #7
    Jenna's Avatar
    Jenna is offline sheep
    Premium Lifetime Member
    Join Date
    06-11-06
    Posts
    24,370
    Rep Power
    4817857
    Quote Originally Posted by Xiphos View Post
    The church doesn't say you have to vote for Republicans, it just says you aren't supposed to support intrinsic evil. I would vote for a third party candidate if I needed to, and have done so in the past.

    In the case where all the candidates are pro-death you can vote for the least evil since you don't have any other choice.

    In the choice you gave me I would have voted for a third party.

    I don't care if everyone agrees with me or the church. But don't call yourself a Catholic and deny some of the most basic and important teachings of the church.
    Doesn't the Catholic Church also oppose the death penalty, which McCain supported?

  8. #8
    Xiphos's Avatar
    Xiphos is offline I Void Warranties
    Verified LEO
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    03-09-08
    Location
    Thermopylae
    Posts
    8,378
    Rep Power
    7772239
    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    Doesn't the Catholic Church also oppose the Death Penalty, which McCain supported?
    Catechism of the Catholic Church:

    2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
    Those facing the death penalty are not helpless and innocent.
    Pleasing nobody, one person at a time.

    That which does not kill me, better start fucking running.

    If I lived every day like it was my last, the body count would be staggering.

    I intend to go in harm's way. -John Paul Jones

    Hunt the wolf, and bring light to the dark places that others fear to go. LT COL Dave Grossman

  9. #9
    Jenna's Avatar
    Jenna is offline sheep
    Premium Lifetime Member
    Join Date
    06-11-06
    Posts
    24,370
    Rep Power
    4817857
    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    I agree with Xiphos, which is why I left the Church.

    (not over abortion, however)
    Over what issue did you leave it?

  10. #10
    Xiphos's Avatar
    Xiphos is offline I Void Warranties
    Verified LEO
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    03-09-08
    Location
    Thermopylae
    Posts
    8,378
    Rep Power
    7772239
    This thread is supposed to be about the news article. I suggest we take the personal questions to PM.
    Pleasing nobody, one person at a time.

    That which does not kill me, better start fucking running.

    If I lived every day like it was my last, the body count would be staggering.

    I intend to go in harm's way. -John Paul Jones

    Hunt the wolf, and bring light to the dark places that others fear to go. LT COL Dave Grossman

  11. #11
    Jenna's Avatar
    Jenna is offline sheep
    Premium Lifetime Member
    Join Date
    06-11-06
    Posts
    24,370
    Rep Power
    4817857
    Quote Originally Posted by Xiphos View Post
    Catechism of the Catholic Church:

    Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

    Those facing the death penalty are not helpless and innocent.
    I had always thought that most Catholic clergy, including the Pope, opposed the way the Death Penalty is applied in the US, because it's not the "the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor" in the US--life imprisonment is another possible way:

    http://www.cacp.org/catechism.html
    http://www.americancatholic.org/news/deathpenalty/

  12. #12
    CTR man's Avatar
    CTR man is offline Officer First Class
    Supporting Member Lvl 3
    Join Date
    05-20-06
    Location
    Ceres, CA
    Posts
    4,965
    Rep Power
    1169036
    Quote Originally Posted by Xiphos View Post
    The Catholic Church teaches that abortion is objectively a grave sin, and supporting abortion is participation in that sin. It is scandalous for Catholics to support abortion. The priest is 100% correct.

    If you disagree with the church quit calling yourself Catholic. I wouldn't dream of becoming a member of any church and then telling them they're wrong.
    I, too, agree with Xiphos, but then again I am not Catholic. Never have been, which is surprising since Catholicism seems to be the religion of some of my ancestors. Especially on my fathers side.


    Choose The Right. When you're doing whats right, then you have nothing to worry about.

    Not a LEO

    In memory of Sgt. Howard K. Stevenson 1965 - 2005. Ceres Police Dept.
    In memory of Robert N. Panos 1955 - 2008 Ceres Police Dept.









  13. #13
    Xiphos's Avatar
    Xiphos is offline I Void Warranties
    Verified LEO
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    03-09-08
    Location
    Thermopylae
    Posts
    8,378
    Rep Power
    7772239
    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    I had always thought that most Catholic clergy, including the Pope, opposed the way the Death Penalty is applied in the US, because it's not the "the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor" in the US--life imprisonment is another possible way:

    http://www.cacp.org/catechism.html
    http://www.americancatholic.org/news/deathpenalty/
    They are making prudential decisions based on the CCC. We can debate all day long whether an individual death penalty case meets the requirements of the Catechism. The death penalty however is not in and of itself an intrinsic evil that's always wrong.
    Pleasing nobody, one person at a time.

    That which does not kill me, better start fucking running.

    If I lived every day like it was my last, the body count would be staggering.

    I intend to go in harm's way. -John Paul Jones

    Hunt the wolf, and bring light to the dark places that others fear to go. LT COL Dave Grossman

  14. #14
    Jenna's Avatar
    Jenna is offline sheep
    Premium Lifetime Member
    Join Date
    06-11-06
    Posts
    24,370
    Rep Power
    4817857
    Quote Originally Posted by Xiphos View Post
    This thread is supposed to be about the news article. I suggest we take the personal questions to PM.
    Sorry if my questions are too personal for a public discussion. I really am curious about how faith and politics interact, and would like to hear the answers by PM if anyone would like to tell me but doesn't want to discuss it in public.

    I'm agnostic but I would prefer to be Christian if I could overcome my skepticism and need for evidence. I admire people who have strong religious convictions and apply it to all aspects of their lives, even if I don't agree with them. That's why I'm curious about how they manage to do that.

    I don't know if abortion is wrong or not, because there's not enough evidence in either direction--I don't know if killing a fetus is the same as killing an animal without a soul or the same as killing a baby with a soul, because I'm not actually sure what has a soul and what doesn't. That's also why I tried to be vegan for a few years--I'm not completely sure if all animals lack souls, and if some have souls which kinds of animals do and which don't--it's hard to imagine a clam having a soul, for instance, though there I wouldn't rule it out entirely; I had to stop being vegan because it made me dangerously underweight, but I still feel somewhat ambivalent and guilty about eating animal products. I wouldn't have an abortion myself, because I'm not sure about whether or not it's ethical, and I've remained celibate since my early 20s partly because I don't want to get in a situation where I'd have to make that decision.

    I'm also ambivalent about the death penalty--I'm opposed to its use purely for retribution, but I would support it if there were evidence that it saved more lives by causing people to commit fewer murders than they would commit if there were no death penalty. I haven't seen enough evidence of that to be sure, but I haven't seen enough evidence to make me rule it out either.

  15. #15
    MacLean's Avatar
    MacLean is offline O/R Gun mod
    Verified LEO
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    09-05-07
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    11,802
    Rep Power
    4584773
    I'm pretty sure the current dogma says there is a legitimate hierarchy of moral evils, and the destruction of the innocent is pretty high up the food chain.

    It isn't difficult to understand really - what is difficult to understand is how someone like Biden can get away with calling himself a Catholic.

    It is hipocrisy at it's best - and it is rampant in the Church today, or Mr. Obama would not be the President Elect.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  16. #16
    Ryan's Avatar
    Ryan is offline Bust a move
    Supporting Member Lvl 3
    Join Date
    08-01-07
    Posts
    489
    Rep Power
    137404
    Quote Originally Posted by Xiphos View Post
    In the case where all the candidates are pro-death you can vote for the least evil since you don't have any other choice.
    Pretty ballsy statement. Your personal beliefs are one thing, but basically calling someone who disagrees a murderer is completely out of line.
    "The inherent vice of Capitalism is the unequal sharing of its blessings; the inherent vice of Socialism is the equal sharing of its miseries." -Winston Churchill

  17. #17
    Xiphos's Avatar
    Xiphos is offline I Void Warranties
    Verified LEO
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    03-09-08
    Location
    Thermopylae
    Posts
    8,378
    Rep Power
    7772239
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    Pretty ballsy statement. Your personal beliefs are one thing, but basically calling someone who disagrees a murderer is completely out of line.
    I'm calling it what I think it is and in the context with what my church teaches it is. You're free to disagree, I couldn't care less.
    Pleasing nobody, one person at a time.

    That which does not kill me, better start fucking running.

    If I lived every day like it was my last, the body count would be staggering.

    I intend to go in harm's way. -John Paul Jones

    Hunt the wolf, and bring light to the dark places that others fear to go. LT COL Dave Grossman

  18. #18
    Ryan's Avatar
    Ryan is offline Bust a move
    Supporting Member Lvl 3
    Join Date
    08-01-07
    Posts
    489
    Rep Power
    137404
    Quote Originally Posted by Xiphos View Post
    I'm calling it what I think it is and in the context with what my church teaches it is. You're free to disagree, I couldn't care less.

    Calling someone who is pro-choice (such as myself) pro-death is not only an insult, but it sounds like you are implying we support death. That is far from the case. Maybe I took it too personally
    "The inherent vice of Capitalism is the unequal sharing of its blessings; the inherent vice of Socialism is the equal sharing of its miseries." -Winston Churchill

  19. #19
    MacLean's Avatar
    MacLean is offline O/R Gun mod
    Verified LEO
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    09-05-07
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    11,802
    Rep Power
    4584773
    Xiphos is free to label his political beliefs the way he wishes, as is any other member of the site - including you.

    You're going to get one warning about tone, because I know this is a topic people get heated about.

    Stay civil and debate until you're blue in the face, but don't make the mistake of crossing the line.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  20. #20
    Xiphos's Avatar
    Xiphos is offline I Void Warranties
    Verified LEO
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    03-09-08
    Location
    Thermopylae
    Posts
    8,378
    Rep Power
    7772239
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    Calling someone who is pro-choice (such as myself) pro-death is not only an insult, but it sounds like you are implying we support death. That is far from the case. Maybe I took it too personally
    It is what it is and I call it like I see it. Regardless of the terms that are used to justify it the end result is the death of a baby. If anyone who supports abortion really believes it's just a dead blob of tissue whatever term I assign it shouldn't bother them in the least.

    The point of the thread however is that people who step into Catholic Churches and call themselves Catholics are violating basic doctrines and causing scandal to the church by supporting Obama. They are wrong to call themselves Catholic or they need admit they shouldn't have done it and get right with the church.
    Pleasing nobody, one person at a time.

    That which does not kill me, better start fucking running.

    If I lived every day like it was my last, the body count would be staggering.

    I intend to go in harm's way. -John Paul Jones

    Hunt the wolf, and bring light to the dark places that others fear to go. LT COL Dave Grossman

 

 
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •