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  1. #1
    Second Chance's Avatar
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    Something good I think

    What do you all think of Obama's plan to limit the top pay ($500,000.00) to exec's of company's who need governement loans to keep them afloat. I for one think about time this happened, when you see these banks getting billions of dollars in aid, then paying their CEO, millions of dollars in salary and even more in stock options, now come on.

    Make us think you need the money and you know what the hell you are doing to not have to get aid from all of us poor tax payers.
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    Five-0's Avatar
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    Nationalised business, market controls, ect. I'm all with ya comrade.

    Executive compensation is almost always contractually negotiated. IE a company is loosing millions of dollars. They hire a hot shot executive that is known for cutting waste, uneccessary spending ect. Instead of loosing 100 million dollars the company only looses 10 million dollars. This executive saved the company 90 million dollars. I say he is worth more than 500k. Goverenment is not known for its effeciency. To think that businesses would be better off under government control scares the hell out of me. As a point of fact, I was against any and all bailouts of private business. Failing businesses provide oppertunity for new businesses in a free market economy. Ever notice how government always seems to have the answer for problems created by the government? I know this is short, but I'm at work.

    Meanwhile, fishing in Russia:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." -- Frederic Bastiat

    "Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter." Ernest Hemingway

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  3. #3
    MacLean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Five-0 View Post
    Nationalised business, market controls, ect. I'm all with ya comrade.
    Dah!

    Reps.
    I'm your huckleberry...

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  4. #4
    Xiphos's Avatar
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    A) The government has no business deciding what salary to give business executives. If they make bad decisions and fail that's business.

    B) The government has no business bailing out private business. It's capitalism folks, sink or swim.

    C) The government has no business telling banks who to loan money to. Had this been followed to begin with, none of the rest of this would be happening.
    Pleasing nobody, one person at a time.

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  5. #5
    MacLean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Second Chance View Post
    What do you all think of Obama's plan to limit the top pay ($500,000.00) to exec's of company's who need governement loans to keep them afloat. I for one think about time this happened, when you see these banks getting billions of dollars in aid, then paying their CEO, millions of dollars in salary and even more in stock options, now come on.

    Make us think you need the money and you know what the hell you are doing to not have to get aid from all of us poor tax payers.
    The idea is emotionally satisfying, no doubt.

    The problem is the approach. We should not be giving them money to start with.

    Issuing that money is a violation of the very principle of capitalism.

    Using that money to nationalize private corporations or to establish government market controls is a sneaky underhanded way to achieve socialism.

    The government is not supposed to be running your business.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  6. #6
    pgg's Avatar
    pgg
    pgg is offline Damnit, I'm hungry again.
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    I have to agree with the responses. I see it as the gov't taking control of the private sector. I have a huge problem with that. I also agree that we shouldn't help any business out. They either sink or swim.
    'Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a
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    possible to pick up a turd by the clean end!'

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  7. #7
    Darin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiphos View Post
    A) The government has no business deciding what salary to give business executives. If they make bad decisions and fail that's business.

    B) The government has no business bailing out private business. It's capitalism folks, sink or swim.

    C) The government has no business telling banks who to loan money to. Had this been followed to begin with, none of the rest of this would be happening.
    +1,000 bro!!!!!!

  8. #8
    TXCharlie's Avatar
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    This is one that I totally agree with Obama on, although I disagree with the handouts themselves.

    If the companies don't like being puppets of the Government, then they should simply refuse the handouts and go into bankruptcy - I think they should have been forced to do that anyway - No company is indespensible.

    When a company takes Taxpayer money, then there has to be strings attached to protect taxpayers. That's the same as a military contractor in a "Cost Plus" contract, like the HARM missile that I worked on for years. The government didn't just take TI's word that a widget cost $100,000, TI had to prove it. They also could not have executives drawing $20 million working on the project, and there were strict limits on overhead and profit.

    You have to expect a high degree of Government control until the project gets out of the "Cost Plus" phase (or in this case, the "Handout Phase") - At that point the government is simply buying a product so many of the financial controls come off.

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  9. #9
    Darin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    The idea is emotionally satisfying, no doubt.

    The problem is the approach. We should not be giving them money to start with.

    Issuing that money is a violation of the very principle of capitalism.

    Using that money to nationalize private corporations or to establish government market controls is a sneaky underhanded way to achieve socialism.

    The government is not supposed to be running your business.
    Another +1,000


    Once you get the government sticking their fingers in the pie.....it ruins it.

  10. #10
    Five-0's Avatar
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    Chuck, I believe some of the banks were forced to take funds. Even those that did were forced to make bad loans to unqualified people. Back to the government solving problems that IT created.

    Meanwhile, fishing in Russia:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." -- Frederic Bastiat

    "Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter." Ernest Hemingway

    The opinions given in my signatures & threads DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "Five-0" on Officerresource.com

  11. #11
    Retdetsgt's Avatar
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    Chrysler has no business surviving. They've been putting out pieces of shit cars for decades. Even when they find something that sells, the bean counters ruin it. They deserve to go under as does a lot of businesses in this country. GM isn't far behind. And I have no problem limiting the money the asshole executives get for taking their businesses down the tube. If they're taking our money, they can learn to live without 100 million dollar salaries. Now they need to renegotiate some union contracts like the UAW's that pay people nearly full salary for years after they're laid off.

    Problem is, if they go down right now, it probably will throw us into a depression again. Frankly, I'd rather see the money put into businesses than follow the path FDR did which was have the government create makeshift jobs that just prolonged the depression.

    And posters are right, forcing the banks to give loans is what created this mess. Like most social programs, it was full of unintended consequences. Instead of helping a few low income people buy minimal homes, it was used by young couples to buy huge homes they couldn't afford. My neighborhood is full of young couples living on next to the bone in multi hundred thousand dollar homes they should have never been able to buy. Across the street from is a cop, I know what he makes. His wife doesn't work, he's in his late 20's and has to be paying well over 50% of his take home to just house payments. A deputy down the street lost his house and had to sell it for about 30K less than he paid for it. I have zero sympathy for him or any of the others. When my kids were growing up, I lived in 1000+ ranch houses that I could easily afford. And I didn't buy stuff I wanted and didn't really need on credit cards that I couldn't pay off at the end of the month. And the vast majority of my peers were the same way. Now people HAVE to have the big screen TV, the boat, the new cars, big house, etc. before they make the money.

    This is what started the whole mess. Now the Demokrats want to take us farther down the tube by jacking up the decifict to astronomical amounts. The Congressional Budget Office has said the long term effects will be more harmful than any short term help it gives us. And they're blaming the Republicans and the Republicans are too stupid to bring the truth to the public's attention.

    But since we're in the mess, this is not the time to let them fail. Too many people are losing jobs as it is. If many of them fold, it will be horrible for all of us.

    The only good thing is that enough people in this country are so sick of this package that the Demokrats will at least lose their big majority and might lose their majority altogther.
    When I used to be somebody (I'm center top)

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  12. #12
    lewisipso's Avatar
    lewisipso is offline Injustice/Indifference/In God we trust
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    If it were their money that they made then fine, pay whomever whatever. That's our $500,000 dollars thats being shelled out. Screw em and they should consider themselves lucky to get that.
    Now as far as bailing them out in the first place so they could continue making bad business decisions, I was against that to begin with.
    (and it's too late to stop government from meddling. at least for the next 4 years.)
    Do not war for peace. If you must war, war for justice. For without justice there is no peace. -me

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    Five-0's Avatar
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    What the current administration is trying to do is manipulate the natural free market business cycle. Things go up (prosperity), things go down (recession). Now, when things go down new blood gets its shot at the market. Ever notice how in the past after a recession things come roaring back bigger than they were before the past up swing. It is called CAPITALISM!!!! Leave it alone it works. It breeds prosperity, research, and development. How do you beat the biggest widget maker? You make your widgets better and cheaper. Just like a body builder on steroids constantly trying to make himself stronger all the time his body eventually breaks down. Same story here. Make your way through the injury and plateaus on your own and you come out of them stronger than before. More government is not the answer:

    YouTube - Government is the Problem - Reagan

    Meanwhile, fishing in Russia:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." -- Frederic Bastiat

    "Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter." Ernest Hemingway

    The opinions given in my signatures & threads DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "Five-0" on Officerresource.com

  14. #14
    lewisipso's Avatar
    lewisipso is offline Injustice/Indifference/In God we trust
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    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Five-0 again
    Crap.
    Do not war for peace. If you must war, war for justice. For without justice there is no peace. -me

    We are who we choose to be.

    R.I.P. Arielle. 08/20/2010-09/16/2012


  15. #15
    Five-0's Avatar
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    That old actor sure makes it sound so simple doesn't he Lew?

    Meanwhile, fishing in Russia:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." -- Frederic Bastiat

    "Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter." Ernest Hemingway

    The opinions given in my signatures & threads DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "Five-0" on Officerresource.com

  16. #16
    Retdetsgt's Avatar
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    Problem is, the great depression was caused by unchecked credit too, only a different kind. Then people were buying stocks they couldn't afford on credit and when the market went down, they couldn't pay off the margins (loans). I'm all for free trade, but things like credit have to have some regulation. Hoover tried to let the market take care of itself and things got worse. Unfortunately, the Democratic Congress of 1932 was even worse when it raised the max. income tax from 25% to 67%. Unemployment went up from 15% to 23% within months.

    Of course the dust bowl didn't help either. But it wasn't until the dust hit the East Coast that the government came in and started stablizing the land. Nobody had the money to do it back then except the government. That was the only really useful government project.

    WWII is the thing that brought us out of it and that was because the government HAD to invest in buying American goods, e.g. war materials. If they'd invested in that before the war rather than social welfare work programs, we'd have gotten out of it sooner.

    The Democrats are doing the same tired things FDR did, that is investing in public projects. Hoover Dam and the TVA didn't recover the economy and neither will their public projects.

    I'm not for the government interfering either, but they already have. If they let it fall now, the results will be devastating. It's easy for most of us to talk tough about capitalism and about letting it settle because we work(ed) for the government and probably don't have to worry about being laid off and not being able to take care of our families. But a hell of a lot of innocent people are going to suffer if we let some of these huge corporations go belly up. When your insulated from losing your job, you can afford to say screw it, let them fail.
    When I used to be somebody (I'm center top)

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  17. #17
    MacLean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retdetsgt View Post
    When your insulated from losing your job, you can afford to say screw it, let them fail.
    You're assuming we're insulated.

    Maybe, maybe not. Property taxes around here are failing to support police operating expenditures, and layoffs are a distinct possibility.
    I'm your huckleberry...

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    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  18. #18
    Retdetsgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    You're assuming we're insulated.

    Maybe, maybe not. Property taxes around here are failing to support police operating expenditures, and layoffs are a distinct possibility.
    A very few may lose jobs, but they had cops all through the very worst of the depression. Pay and benefits may take a cut, but they have to have cops. It's not much of an assumption based on history. Besides, crime will go up too. You'll keep your job.
    When I used to be somebody (I'm center top)

    "A burning desire for social justice is never a substitute for knowing what you're talking about". -Thomas Sowell-

  19. #19
    Five-0's Avatar
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    I don't want people to suffer. I do know that the longer the crutches are kept in place that the harder the fall will be when they can't support the load.

    Meanwhile, fishing in Russia:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." -- Frederic Bastiat

    "Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter." Ernest Hemingway

    The opinions given in my signatures & threads DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "Five-0" on Officerresource.com

  20. #20
    Retdetsgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Five-0 View Post
    I don't want people to suffer. I do know that the longer the crutches are kept in place that the harder the fall will be when they can't support the load.
    I think the government can help, but the way they're doing it is wrong. More social programs like FDR's have a history of failure. What the government needs to do is first fix the credit market. Once that's done, the economy will probably recover on it's own. Tighten regulation on interest rates, who can get loans, etc rather than forcing banks to make loans to people who can't afford them. Do away with interest only loans and variable rate loans too. I remember when I first heard of interest only loans, I told my wife that this is the beginning of a disaster, and it was. But they had to come up with goofy loans like that to satisfy the Democrats like Frank who were pushing them.

    Unfortunately, it went so far that other things have to be done. I wouldn't buy a car from the big three on a bet, but if they fail right now, it will start a spiral that will take decades to recover from.

    I think the best we can hope for is they're able to repay the loans like Chrysler did years ago and be on their own again. Hopefully by making a decent product again.
    When I used to be somebody (I'm center top)

    "A burning desire for social justice is never a substitute for knowing what you're talking about". -Thomas Sowell-

 

 
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