Do you believe gays & lesbians will go to heaven?

**Terminator** · 07-17-09, 10:25 PM

Do you believe gays & lesbians will go to heaven? Why or why not?

**TXCharlie** · 07-17-09, 10:43 PM

I don't really beleve n Heaven, as descrbed n the bible - I think the bible was written by men, as was the Koran and all other holy books of the religions of earth. With so many differing opinions of what afterlife is, I would tend to think that NO ONE has it right.

As to whether there is some type of afterlife, maybe so, who knows. I don't think even the Pope knows for sure, as much as he believes he does.

I can live without knowing, just like I can live without knowing where the Universe came from. No one knows that for sure either.

In fact, no one really knows what "real" is... We already know that solid objects are 99.99999% empty space, sparsely occupied by atoms being held together by mysterious forces that we still don't really understand, and the atoms themselves are mostly empty space - A solid object is just an illusion, so maybe everything else is also an illusion. Even the universe itself is mostly empty space, but then the question begs, "what is empty space"? We don't know that either. We don't know shit when it comes down to it, and religion is a mechanism whereby people seek to explain what we don't know.

"Real" might be whatever the creator (if there is one) decides to program on his simulator - We might all just be bits and bytes in a supercomputer in an entirely different reality - and of course that may mean that computers are totally different also - Something like our
computers that can only turn on and off bits and bytes are probably the most primitive form of computer in the universe.

By the same token, I think our ideas of religion are primitive ideas. Even science really has no direct knowledge of anything. We have to take everything on faith at some level, even what we might call "scientific fact". As you dig down into "fact", it is no longer fact, it becomes theory based on observation and assumptions. Religion goes one better than that - it starts out as observation and assumptions.

**Terminator** · 07-17-09, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by TXCharlie

We might all just be bits and bytes in a supercomputer in an entirely different reality - and of course that may mean that computers are totally different also - Something like our
computers that can only turn on and off bits and bytes are probably the most primitive form of computer in the universe.

I would definitely call the above one of the strangest parts of a post I have ever read.

**countybear** · 07-17-09, 11:26 PM

JENNA!! STOP POSING AS TXCHARLIE!

(now back to your regularly scheduled thread)

**Car 4** · 07-18-09, 12:29 AM

Yes Term! You will go to heaven.....if you wash behind your ears and say your prayers.

Car 4

**MacLean** · 07-18-09, 12:33 AM

I think anyone who believes God cares who is fucking who or when is overconfident in their knowledge of God.

**Jenna** · 07-18-09, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by countybear

JENNA!! STOP POSING AS TXCHARLIE!

(now back to your regularly scheduled thread)

Well said, TXCharlie.

I have many of the same views, except I do think it is possible that there is one particular religion/denomination that has it right (I just don't know which it is), and if there is one that is right, I'd really want to know which it is. I hope it's Christianity, because Christian ethics are most similar to my own, and because Christianity seems to be the most optimistic about the nature of God and the afterlife. But my hopes can't affect reality one way or another.

So I don't know if heaven even exists or what the criteria are for entry, much less whether gays and lesbians will go there. But if the Bible is true, I hope the interpretation that is true is one in which at least some gays and lesbians will go to heaven. Even if the Bible is an accurate description of God and what God wants, it's hard to tell whether Biblical prohibitions of homosexual practices are actually about God's will or about conformity to the cultural norms of the places and times the Bible was written (or about God's will that people conform to the dominant norms of the society they live in, which are very different here and now than they were in Biblical places and times). Even if homosexual practices are considered sins by the Christian God (if the Christian God exists), they can't be worse than the many other sins that most people have commited, such as premarital and extramarital sex, idolatry, not honoring their parents, bearing false witness, coveting their neighbor's stuff and spouse, taking the Lord's name in vain, failing to observe the Sabbath, doubting whether God exists, etc. The New Testament says that people will be forgiven for such sins after they accept Christ's sacrifice, but it's unclear what happens if they keep sinning after accepting Christ's sacrifice (which most Christians do). Of course, since anything is possible, it is possible that the only people who go to heaven are those who have never sinned, in which case only those who die as infants would go to heaven. I hope that's not how it is, but who knows.

So anyway, the short answer is I don't know.

**CT209** · 07-18-09, 06:01 AM

If I had to answer based on my religious up-bringing, I'd say ,"No". The Catholic Church wasn't big on gays.

Of course, since I'm not a practicing Catholic anymore, I can't say for sure what their stance is these days.

I do know that women don't wear hats to Mass anymore and that the altar boys don't recite in Latin (and they aren't just altar boys anymore either- now they have altar girls

)

**irishmick** · 07-18-09, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by maclean

I think anyone who believes God cares who is fucking who or when is overconfident in their knowledge of God.

+1

Not to mention, if you DO follow the Bible, we're not to judge. If someone asks for forgiveness for their sins and repents, regardless of who they're in bed with, then they're forgiven. No one is perfect and if you believe that being gay is a sin, then you can lump it in there with adultery and not honoring your father.

**countybear** · 07-18-09, 03:15 PM

On a more serious note: (Romans, beginning ch. 3:23)

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

In Paul's letter to Romans, he continues by citing the examples of Abraham and David, who were 'justified by faith'... and concluding these examples, he warns not to discount the law, but summarizes in the conclusion of this passage:

... Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, And whose sins are covered.

Given such examples, one cannot but realize that salvation isn't gained by strict adherence to Mosaic law (in which lay the condemnation for hundreds of acts and omissions codified as 'sinful'), but only can be gained by faith in the provision (propitiation) for forgiveness of those sins by our Creator. For if obedience was the only righteous path, then all have fallen short of it and are indeed doomed. By this, we understand that by sheer definition of 'sin' and the nature of man since the fall, it can literally be defined as any conduct or thought which serves to distance us from God. Sexual immorality is certainly one prevalent means, be it homosexual or heterosexual. Continued and unrepentant sin, without mindfulness of the provision granted by our Heavenly Father do serve to breech our relationship with God, so truely speaking, the greedy, the lazy, the adulterous, the thieves, (and the list goes on and on) are in just as deep a risk of peril as any other... but for the forgiveness provided, such does not have to be certain damnation.

The one unpardonable sin given to us in scripture, is commitable only by those who have no fear of damnation, but live with impunity by utterly rejecting wholly God's provision of grace.

For God, its not about what we percieve as 'righteous' or 'sinful'; it is not what we consider to be 'fair' or inequitable. Do you think that upon reaching paradise, we could very well meet a murderer of our children? Certainly such is possible, I warn you. We, as humans unfortunately gauge everything by what we percieve as right or wrong; pardonable or unpardonable. I, for one, am thankful that such is not a determinate of salvation.

For those who stand with signs on a corner, screeching condemnations for a particular sinful act or nature, I can only respond:

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. - John 8:7

Well, you asked...

**JSO85360** · 07-18-09, 10:00 PM

I don't believe your sexual preference will be a big determining factor, if there is a heaven. What about cheating on your spouse, not obeying all the rules, whether they are from some bible or state statutes? There are so many other things to consider. I think I've said it before, but at this point of my life, I'm just trying to do the right thing, as I see fit, so that if or when I have to stand before G'd, hopefully the good I've done will outweigh the bad. If there is a place that's better than some place else, I'd like to hope I can go there, but to tell you the truth, I think the time we spend on Earth (and even though everyone has that center of the universe complex) is what you are going to experience before you are just a history lesson. Leave the people you've known and met with good memories, and that's about the best you can do.

**Ducky** · 07-19-09, 07:05 AM

I should think that the big things in your life - like if you were a good person or a homicidal maniac - would be the determining factors in the status of a potential afterlife. The gender of who you love in relation to your own gender would have no bearing, but rather how you treat those you love would tip the scale.

**Second Chance** · 07-19-09, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by Ducky

I should think that the big things in your life - like if you were a good person or a homicidal maniac - would be the determining factors in the status of a potential afterlife. The gender of who you love in relation to your own gender would have no bearing, but rather how you treat those you love would tip the scale.

+1

**keith720** · 07-21-09, 01:10 AM

As A Christian, I don't think it's up to me to determine who does or doesn't go to heaven.

**bayern** · 07-21-09, 07:38 AM

Sure, who do you think puts up the RAINBOW" after it rains.

**IndianaFuzz** · 07-21-09, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by bayern

Sure, who do you think puts up the RAINBOW" after it rains.

That's hilarious.

**IndianaFuzz** · 07-21-09, 01:01 PM

The answer to this all depends on what your religious beliefs are. The way I was raised (but don't subscribe to now), it doesn't matter if someone is gay on getting into heaven, but whether or not they repent for their sins or not.

But personally, I don't believe there is a heaven. So its kind of a moot point to me.

**luckyme** · 07-21-09, 02:35 PM

I agree it's not for us to judge. However the bible states that being gay is a sin. It also states that if you accept Jesus, you will repent of your ways. You will be judged by your fruits, so if you are truly saved then you will not want to sin against God anymore. While we all will still sin of course, it should make you want to change your lifestyle, i.e. not be gay. I guess it would depend on the person whether or not that would be enough to make you straight.

**keith720** · 07-21-09, 05:05 PM

Stealing is a sin. Lust is a sin. Lying is a sin, etc., etc. Being Gay is a sin. I don't think God see degrees of sin. We don't get into, or denied heaven because we've accumulated too many sin points!

**Car 4** · 07-22-09, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by maclean

I think anyone who believes God cares who is fucking who or when is overconfident in their knowledge of God.

Sorry kids....but Christ himself said that "God notes even the fall of a sparrow". God does care about how you live your life....at least according to the guys who knew him best...Peter, Paul, James, Mark and John.

You can ask him when you get to stand before the big chair and answer a few questions...

Car 4