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View Poll Results: Are you in favor of Universal Health Care?

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  • Yes

    1 3.13%
  • No

    29 90.63%
  • Yes but under a different proposed legislation

    2 6.25%
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  1. #41
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    Well here's an interesting argument I hadn't thought of before, but most of those that oppose the currently proposed healthcare legislation are also screaming about lowering taxes for business to help spur the economy.

    How much more would those businesses save by getting some relief from high healthcare costs and how many new businesses would be created if people were free to leave their jobs and start a business without the fear of not having or having to pay through the nose for health insurance?

    2 Arkansas men reflect national divide over health reform - CNN.com
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by thanantos View Post
    How much more would those businesses save by getting some relief from high healthcare costs and how many new businesses would be created if people were free to leave their jobs and start a business without the fear of not having or having to pay through the nose for health insurance?
    LMAO! Who do you think is going to pay for this government health care? Businesses and the middle class are going to bend over and take it in the backside with tax increases.
    Pleasing nobody, one person at a time.

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  3. #43
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    Who do you think is going to pay for the tax cuts for businesses?
    The truth is you're the weak, and I am the tyranny of evil men.
    But I'm tryin' Ringo.
    I'm tryin'...real hard...to be the shepherd.

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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by thanantos View Post
    Who do you think is going to pay for the tax cuts for businesses?
    Businesses don't pay taxes. Shareholders and consumers pay the taxes for businesses. Business taxes are part of the overhead costs that are factored into the costs of the goods and services they provide. When government foists taxes and other expensive mandates on businesses, those costs are factored into the end product, making it more expensive for the consumer. Those additional expenses, if difficult to pass to the consumer or shareholder, will result in cuts by the business in other areas, like employment.

    When businesses are given "tax cuts" by the government it translates into lower expenses and therefore reducing the costs of the final product. This spurs increased spending by consumers and investors which will eventually increase government revenues.
    Pleasing nobody, one person at a time.

    That which does not kill me, better start fucking running.

    If I lived every day like it was my last, the body count would be staggering.

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  5. #45
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    OH HELL YES, START ANOTHER THREAD ON TAXES. I'VE GOT BOTH BARRELS LOADED FOR BEAR BABY.

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  6. #46
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    I'm absolutely against "Universal" healthcare, but I'm in favor of insurance reform. Any reform, however, should not involve the Federal Government setting prices or running any part of it.

    We have the best medical system in the world - a system that has brought us almost unbelievable advances in technology. That is certainly worth cost growth that is higher than inflation. The Insurance companies also have medical cost management down to a science, and we should not throw that away, either. they have evolved such things as network-negotiated rates which do keep costs to a manageable level.


    If we'd just do these few things, it would solve most of the problems we have:
    1. Require the insurance companies to sell any given policy at the same price to everyone - No more "Corporate Group Rates" which offload costs onto lone individuals and small business.
    2. Eliminate "pre-existing" and health considerations - Everyone qualifies regardless of their medical history. The power of averages will mitigate the risk to the companies.
    3. Allow insurance companies to sell their insurance in all 50 states, as long as it meets minimum state guidelines of reserve, policy language, etc. The states need to retain some say in that, but it should be a "shall issue" permit if minimum guidelines are met.
    4. Eliminate Medicare and Medicaid. Issue discount vouchers for private insurance instead. Then fire all the bureaucrats - Apply that billions in cost savings to give vouchers to more people.
    5. Anyone who doesn't use their vouchers and buy their own insurance, tough shit - Let them use the emergency Room like they do now.

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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by thanantos View Post
    Well here's an interesting argument I hadn't thought of before, but most of those that oppose the currently proposed healthcare legislation are also screaming about lowering taxes for business to help spur the economy.

    How much more would those businesses save by getting some relief from high healthcare costs and how many new businesses would be created if people were free to leave their jobs and start a business without the fear of not having or having to pay through the nose for health insurance?

    2 Arkansas men reflect national divide over health reform - CNN.com
    Healthcare and doctors do not grow on trees. Someone has to pay for it. There are provisions for government subsidies and also waivers for those deemed too poor to afford it. Therefore, someone else (working people) has to bear the burden.

    To put it another way, for example, the current private system is set up to support 10 people with all 10 paying premiums that cover the costs. This is sustainable because the insurance company did the actuarials and projected the risks versus costs and decided on a premium which allows them to make a profit and sustain business. In hard #s, say each person pays $10. Then you have $100 worth of money to the company which in turn supplies whatever $100 worth of services they can provide after business expenses and profit.

    Now with the current proposal, you have waivers and subsidies so now, take the same group of 10 people, but now not everyone is going to pay $10 each. Say you got 7 people paying $10, 2 paying $7 with subsidies, and 1 not paying at all via a hardship waiver. Now you got 10 people putting in $84 instead. How would any company be able to still provide for $100 worth of services with only $84 coming in? It can't without going out of business. This leads to rationing because now 10 people are accessing $8.40 worth of services instead of $10 worth.

    Before you say the government will be the ones paying that $16 difference with the subsidies and hardship waiver voucher, where does the government get money from? Answer, the working man via taxes. Government does not make money. They take money. They also can't tax the 2 people who are getting subsidies and the 1 guy with the hardship waiver. Guess what? Now the 7 people who are paying their $10 has to pay more to cover the $16 shortage via higher taxes. Now you are going to pay $12.28 each for the same care you would have had for $10 while others aren't paying their share, or at all. This scenario might guarantee the same services but you end up paying more. This is also not sustainable in the long-run as the takers will flood the system and overwhelm the producers who are paying more.

    I realize the above is very simplified but you can't argue with the math. Either the company can't sustain its business model and provides less service or everyone pays more taxes to cover for those who can't pay for themselves. Both choices suck.

    Costs will be passed onto the young and healthy because current provisions do not allow for different rates or denials to anyone with pre-existing conditions no matter how bad it is. Therefore, to adequately cover someone who has terminal cancer and costs about $50k a month in total medical care (it can happen, we had one on our group policy), the company has to charge every participant (healthy or not) more to hedge its bets that it's going to pay out to those few that are going to cost them that much money. Insurance companies are not going to magically pay out money and go broke just because they have to cover someone.
    Nothing clever here except my zombie defense gun... now where is that darn flashlight...


  8. #48
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    HOW can people persist in believing that anything that comes from government is free? Far from it.

    Maybe it's the old adage "out of sight, out of mind" - Just because the government snatches their take before it goes into people's bank account, people are under the delusion that the money never existed, but it DOES exist.

    If the government didn't take so much, we'd see a VAST increase in our monthly salaries - As much as DOUBLE our current net pay, due to hidden / regenerative taxes (tax paid on tax).

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  9. #49
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    Just something to ponder. About 120 million people file a tax return. About 48 million of them pay no taxes. So that means about 80 million people will be shouldering this massively expensive program.

    I know this will sound somewhat hateful, but I am not imbued with that much charitable essence. Or empathy... or desire to pay the taxes.... or anything else.

    I worked pretty hard to get where I am and I'd like to spend my earnings on me.
    "When a crime is committed, liberals blame society. Conservatives blame the criminal." -Debra Saunders

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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProjectCamaro View Post
    I voted no. I believe very strongly in small government, having them take control of healthcare is to much and the amount of money that they'd waste would be huge.
    They'll tax you 3 years ahead of time, spend all of that on benefits for illeagels and raise taxes again to try and pay for some of it.

  11. #51
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    I'm not deluded and understand very well where government money comes from, and Xiphos I own a business so I know very well that businesses pay taxes. In fact, I get f'ed twice. Once when my company makes money, and once more when I take money out of it to pay myself. Can I pass that on to the consumer? To a certain extent yes, but it is not so cut and dry.

    I don't buy the argument that the "takers" will upend the system. Remember that the "takers" have been around since FDR in the form of medicare, and regardless of whether this legislation passes they will still be there.

    This program is not for them. It is for everyone else left in between.
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by thanantos View Post
    Can I pass that on to the consumer? To a certain extent yes, but it is not so cut and dry.
    And that is why small businesses cannot afford this boondoggle at this time - Small business will have to lay people off (or go bankrupt) because competition does not allow them to raise their prices.

    Most small businesses are under-funded as it is - most of them have no way to absorb these extra taxes and fees that will be required to insure their employees under this plan, which they will be FORCED to do.

    The solution is to even the playing field, so that their employees can go on the open market and buy their OWN medical and life insurance at rates the same as a corporate group rate. That's what we all have to do for other types of insurance - Why should Medical insurance be any different?

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  13. #53
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    Thanantos, how is your business set up? LLC? Sub-Chapter S?

    Meanwhile, fishing in Russia:

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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Five-0 View Post
    Thanantos, how is your business set up? LLC? Sub-Chapter S?
    Mine is setup as a partnership. 3 tech guys and an MBA.
    The truth is you're the weak, and I am the tyranny of evil men.
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by CT209 View Post
    Just something to ponder. About 120 million people file a tax return. About 48 million of them pay no taxes. So that means about 80 million people will be shouldering this massively expensive program.

    I know this will sound somewhat hateful, but I am not imbued with that much charitable essence. Or empathy... or desire to pay the taxes.... or anything else.

    I worked pretty hard to get where I am and I'd like to spend my earnings on me.
    That would be closer to 72M people paying some tax to support a nation of 320M. Also, the top 5% of earners in this country are paying about 95% of the taxes. If you do the math, when the takers outnumber the payers, the system will collapse soon enough. The Demonrats will also ensure perpetual power since the takers will always vote for those who give them free stuff.

    Those with abilities are all leaving in droves. Look at California as a perfect example of interstate exodus. Then look at the ultra-hypocrites like the Hollywood elite who are all for the Liberal agenda. Which one will subject themselves to this universal healthcare and wait in line with the plebs at Sector 9A Clinic 32? If they are so much in love with this socialist stuff, why don't they give up their money or fund a big part of it? You telling me if all of Hollywood even so much as gave $1M each, they can't fund healthcare like the way they want? But no... it's has to be someone else's money.

    Socialism is awesome until you run out of other people's money.

    Socialism is great for everyone but the Socialist.
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by thanantos View Post
    Well here's an interesting argument I hadn't thought of before, but most of those that oppose the currently proposed healthcare legislation are also screaming about lowering taxes for business to help spur the economy.

    How much more would those businesses save by getting some relief from high healthcare costs and how many new businesses would be created if people were free to leave their jobs and start a business without the fear of not having or having to pay through the nose for health insurance?

    2 Arkansas men reflect national divide over health reform - CNN.com
    Well, when costs are cheaper to do business, what do businesses do? Expand... and what happens when a business looks to expand? They buy more, sell more, and... HIRE more! Does that sound about right? I own a few businesses... and that's what I do.

    BTW, small businesses and businesses in general are what propels this economy with job creation and wealth creation. I've never had a poor guy give me a job or buy a lot of stuff from my business, but I've had lots of rich people help my business with their purchases, that's for sure.
    Nothing clever here except my zombie defense gun... now where is that darn flashlight...


 

 
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