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View Poll Results: Are you in favor of Universal Health Care?

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  • Yes

    1 3.13%
  • No

    29 90.63%
  • Yes but under a different proposed legislation

    2 6.25%
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  1. #1
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    Post Poll question about universal healthcare

    This came up in another thread and Five-O suggested it would make a good poll, and I agree so here we go.

    In the interest of full disclosure I will add that I am in favor of the currently proposed legislation, but I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

    So what do you think?
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  2. #2
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    Where is the poll?

    That said, no I do not favor universal healthcare. As a matter of fact I don't think the Gov't should be involved in healthcare at all.
    'Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a
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    promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
    holds forth the proposition that it is entirely
    possible to pick up a turd by the clean end!'

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    Poll in place. Let me know if the options are not acceptable.
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    I will say that unless presented with an extremely convincing set of facts I am against universal healthcare. I don't like the idea of the government controlling this issue. The government can't govern itself much less another program, that in my opinion, would be a failure too.
    Do not war for peace. If you must war, war for justice. For without justice there is no peace. -me

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  5. #5
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    i'm all for health care reform. REFORM. I am absolutely dead set against the public option and the current bill.

    Instead, I believe they should focus on things that would actually help, such as tort reform (setting limits on lawsuit judgements) for one. I believe there are better ways of lowering the cost of health insurance that don't cost 1 trillion (1,000,000,000) dollars a year.
    He who has the money, signs the cheques.
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  6. #6
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    Currently there is no way that Congress can legislate Universal Healthcare. In my opinion, the only way to do this is to pass a Constitutional Ammendment making it a guaranteed right. Right now, the 10th Amendment stands in the way. The current plan is a power play and has nothing to do with decreasing costs or covering every person living in the U.S. (Yes, notice I didn't say every citizen.)

    Meanwhile, fishing in Russia:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." -- Frederic Bastiat

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by 213th View Post
    i'm all for health care reform. REFORM. I am absolutely dead set against the public option and the current bill.

    Instead, I believe they should focus on things that would actually help, such as tort reform (setting limits on lawsuit judgements) for one. I believe there are better ways of lowering the cost of health insurance that don't cost 1 trillion (1,000,000,000) dollars a year.
    How about the gov't actually allowing competition? Here in CA there are only a few insurance companies. The gov't does NOT allow any others to open or compete.

    Along with that, how much of our premiums have been raised to offset the cost of illegal immigrants? They are not paying their bills, and they use the ER as a doctor's office. Around here maybe 1 out of every 10 people in the ER have insurance. Most of the others are illegals. So that one person gets stuck paying for everyone else, otherwise the hospital goes out of business. If the hospitals were allowed to turn away these people (or better yet these people weren't even in the country) then our premiums would be alot less.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgg View Post
    Where is the poll?

    That said, no I do not favor universal healthcare. As a matter of fact I don't think the Gov't should be involved in healthcare at all.
    Lol, got halfway through making the post and got a hot call. Sorry and thks lewisipso.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by thanantos View Post
    Lol, got halfway through making the post and got a hot call. Sorry and thks Five-O.
    Don't worry some times its my job to be a smart ass
    'Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a
    delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly
    promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
    holds forth the proposition that it is entirely
    possible to pick up a turd by the clean end!'

    A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. Sigmund Freud

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    I voted no. I believe very strongly in small government, having them take control of healthcare is to much and the amount of money that they'd waste would be huge.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgg View Post
    Don't worry some times its my job to be a smart ass

    Ass.
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    We are who we choose to be.

    R.I.P. Arielle. 08/20/2010-09/16/2012


  12. #12
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    Let me throw this at you Thanantos, and tell me what you think.

    The reason an Amendment to the Constitution is needed is because universal healthcare gives one human being the right to life of another. If you have a right to healthcare then you have a right to the doctor's life, and all the support staff's life that is required to treat you. The Declaration of Independence states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." If the government wants to tell an individual, in this case a professional, that they must give up a portion of their life to another it must be done by spelling out this right to those to be treated. Before this just sounds crazy, lets look at an example where a person is compelled to give a portion of their life, Jury Duty. The 5th Amendment states, ""No person shall... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." In order to get that due process a jury of our peers is required.

    I'm disagreeing with you, but I am trying to argue my case on a fundamental level to keep the emotional side of the issues out of this. Members of both parties love to use budget projections, lawyer speak to hide what is really going on, and the like. The original Constitution consisted of 6 pages. Our founding document is 6 pages. This legislation is over 2,000. Something doesn't pass the smell test here.

    Meanwhile, fishing in Russia:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." -- Frederic Bastiat

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Five-0 View Post
    Let me throw this at you Thanantos, and tell me what you think.

    The reason an Amendment to the Constitution is needed is because universal healthcare gives one human being the right to life of another. If you have a right to healthcare then you have a right to the doctor's life, and all the support staff's life that is required to treat you. The Declaration of Independence states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." If the government wants to tell an individual, in this case a professional, that they must give up a portion of their life to another it must be done by spelling out this right to those to be treated. Before this just sounds crazy, lets look at an example where a person is compelled to give a portion of their life, Jury Duty. The 5th Amendment states, ""No person shall... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." In order to get that due process a jury of our peers is required.

    I'm disagreeing with you, but I am trying to argue my case on a fundamental level to keep the emotional side of the issues out of this. Members of both parties love to use budget projections, lawyer speak to hide what is really going on, and the like. The original Constitution consisted of 6 pages. Our founding document is 6 pages. This legislation is over 2,000. Something doesn't pass the smell test here.
    I appreciate that Five-O. Talking politics is a good time, but only with people that can do so with open minds and cool heads.

    I think it would be helpful to include the whole 5th amendment here:
    No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
    This amendment refers to criminal prosecution not the right of one to access to healthcare.

    I could go on because your argument would include every other government service especially the police (we protect life and liberty), but I think that argument is moot given the context of the 5th amendment.
    The truth is you're the weak, and I am the tyranny of evil men.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by thanantos View Post
    This amendment refers to criminal prosecution not the right of one to access to healthcare.

    I could go on because your argument would include every other government service especially the police (we protect life and liberty), but I think that argument is moot given the context of the 5th amendment.
    My point was not what the 5th refers to. My point was that in order to be tried by your peers, that jury duty is forced. You are called to jury duty to serve. Police voluntarily choose to enter our career. This is why healthcare would need its own Constitutional Amendment to compell the medical professionals to give up a portion of thier life.

    Meanwhile, fishing in Russia:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." -- Frederic Bastiat

    "Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter." Ernest Hemingway

    The opinions given in my signatures & threads DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "Five-0" on Officerresource.com

  15. #15
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    OK, here's my argument:

    #1. I think we have a moral imperative to make sure our citizen's don't die from not having health insurance. We are the only industrialized nation that allows that to happen. I know this can be construed as an emotional argument, but for me it is really not. There is right and wrong and this is simply right, IMHO. (Not implying here that I think anyone else is bad or wrong. It is just a simple issue for me.)

    #2. I agree with all of you that any legislation HAS to include a way to keep costs down. Having the government pay without doing so would be financial suicide, but I disagree that legislation regarding lawsuits or insurance company competition would accomplish this. I don't disagree with those things only that they would not have a large enough effect to make a difference.

    The only way to reduce the cost is to cut out unnecessary procedures and reduce the cost of those procedures. The insurance companies tried this in the 80's with HMO's because they saw, way back then, this system spiraling out of control. It was a total failure because of the bad press they got. Being private companies they needed to change to keep customers so they did, and they just started paying for what people wanted.

    The only true reform will be a supply side one. We need a forum of doctors (the AMA?) to decide for a standard of care for different diseases, for the cost to be assessed for procedures and for someone (the public option) to maintain that (within reason). Once that is in place the other insurance companies will follow suit and cost control will be in place.

    #3. I get the argument about illegals. The reality is they ALREADY get free healthcare at every ER across the country. It is illegal for an ER to refuse care to anyone so ER's are the primary physicians of our illegal immigrant population. Hopefully, this bill will only provide a way for ER's to be paid back for care they are mandated to provide. It's only fair to the ER.

    #4. I also get the argument about big government, and I completely agree. In fact most of the time you will find my political views are libertarian. However, some problems (like national defense) are too big, and the government has to step in to fix them. I think that is the case for this issue.
    The truth is you're the weak, and I am the tyranny of evil men.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Five-0 View Post
    My point was not what the 5th refers to. My point was that in order to be tried by your peers, that jury duty is forced. You are called to jury duty to serve. Police voluntarily choose to enter our career. This is why healthcare would need its own Constitutional Amendment to compell the medical professionals to give up a portion of thier life.
    Yeah, but how is the police voluntarily entering their career any different from healthcare professionals doing the same?

    Plus, that amendment does not say what the government must do it says what it must NOT do.

    And the legislation does not say that any person has the RIGHT to healthcare it just says the government will pay for it if you cannot.

    If you are going to argue that a person has a right to life and the government must provide it, why is suicide not illegal?
    The truth is you're the weak, and I am the tyranny of evil men.
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  17. #17
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    The only way to reduce the cost is to cut out unnecessary procedures and reduce the cost of those procedures.
    In your opinion, who decides what procedure is unnecessary? Is it my doctor that comes from a government list, or a group of doctors who tell other doctors what will and will not be done?

    this bill will only provide a way for ER's to be paid back for care they are mandated to provide.
    With our money. Personally I'm a little tired of the free ride when it comes to government programs when my family isn't entitled to anything.

    These are my personal feelings and in no way intended to be insulting or belligerent.
    Do not war for peace. If you must war, war for justice. For without justice there is no peace. -me

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  18. #18
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    why is suicide not illegal?
    How would you convict?

    Just kidding.
    Do not war for peace. If you must war, war for justice. For without justice there is no peace. -me

    We are who we choose to be.

    R.I.P. Arielle. 08/20/2010-09/16/2012


  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by thanantos View Post
    Yeah, but how is the police voluntarily entering their career any different from healthcare professionals doing the same?
    Gonzales vs. New Castle Police Dept
    http://www4.law.cornell.edu/supct/pdf/04-278P.ZO

    Easier to read story.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/po.../28scotus.html

    Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect Someone
    By LINDA GREENHOUSE
    Published: June 28, 2005
    WASHINGTON, June 27 - The Supreme Court ruled on Monday that the police did not have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm, even a woman who had obtained a court-issued protective order against a violent husband making an arrest mandatory for a violation.

    Because if an individual has universal healthcare there has to be someone that will provide the service. Right now, medicaide pays roughly $.86 on the dollar for the costs of services. If we add millions of people to the demand side of the market that number will go down. I don't know about you, but I work for my whole paycheck not a part of it. Right now doctors are not compelled to accept medicaide patients. With this legislation you can bet that they will. Then again I haven't had the time to read the over 2,000 pages. I do know I have heard many stories about alot of doctors simply retiring or doing something else if this plan goes into effect because there will fewer doctors and alot more patients.


    Quote Originally Posted by thanantos View Post
    Plus, that amendment does not say what the government must do it says what it must NOT do.
    Right. The 5th Amendment opens with the Grand Jury Clause. It reads like this, "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury."

    The compelled jury duty by citizens makes the Grand Jury possible. This is why an individual would need a Constitutional Right to healthcare. You have a right to life and to live, but not to make another person come save your life.


    Quote Originally Posted by thanantos View Post
    And the legislation does not say that any person has the RIGHT to healthcare it just says the government will pay for it if you cannot.
    The 10th Amendment does not allow the government to pay for this. No way around that. Again why you need an amendment to enumerate this power [providing healthcare] to the government.

    Quote Originally Posted by thanantos View Post
    If you are going to argue that a person has a right to life and the government must provide it, why is suicide not illegal?
    The government doesn not have to provide life. The government can't take your life without due process. I was under the impression that suicide was illegal because everytime someone is attempting to do it WE get called to stop them.

    Meanwhile, fishing in Russia:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." -- Frederic Bastiat

    "Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter." Ernest Hemingway

    The opinions given in my signatures & threads DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "Five-0" on Officerresource.com

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by thanantos View Post
    OK, here's my argument:

    #1. I think we have a moral imperative to make sure our citizen's don't die from not having health insurance. We are the only industrialized nation that allows that to happen. I know this can be construed as an emotional argument, but for me it is really not. There is right and wrong and this is simply right, IMHO. (Not implying here that I think anyone else is bad or wrong. It is just a simple issue for me.)
    You die from not having treatment, not from a lack of having insurance. People are treated in this country without insurance all the time.


    Quote Originally Posted by thanantos View Post
    #2. I agree with all of you that any legislation HAS to include a way to keep costs down. Having the government pay without doing so would be financial suicide, but I disagree that legislation regarding lawsuits or insurance company competition would accomplish this. I don't disagree with those things only that they would not have a large enough effect to make a difference.

    The only way to reduce the cost is to cut out unnecessary procedures and reduce the cost of those procedures. The insurance companies tried this in the 80's with HMO's because they saw, way back then, this system spiraling out of control. It was a total failure because of the bad press they got. Being private companies they needed to change to keep customers so they did, and they just started paying for what people wanted.
    Every where government healthcare has been tried it has led to a rationing of care in order to keep costs down. Ask Canadians, Brits ects. Keeping costs down is an idea. It will never come to be until tort reform is part of the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by thanantos View Post
    The only true reform will be a supply side one. We need a forum of doctors (the AMA?) to decide for a standard of care for different diseases, for the cost to be assessed for procedures and for someone (the public option) to maintain that (within reason). Once that is in place the other insurance companies will follow suit and cost control will be in place.
    And innovation will cease to exist in our country. You will get status quo care that will not advance. Profits drive innovation. Right now most drug and treatment innovations occur right here because it pays to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by thanantos View Post
    #3. I get the argument about illegals. The reality is they ALREADY get free healthcare at every ER across the country. It is illegal for an ER to refuse care to anyone so ER's are the primary physicians of our illegal immigrant population. Hopefully, this bill will only provide a way for ER's to be paid back for care they are mandated to provide. It's only fair to the ER.
    Right. They should get life saving healthcare not a free doctor's office visit. This is primaryly what it is used for. My wife worked three different ERs for five years. If care for everyone is "free" the ERs and regular doctor's offices will be overun with BS that doesn't need a doctor. Just like the ERs are now for legal citizens and illegal alien parasites.

    Quote Originally Posted by thanantos View Post
    #4. I also get the argument about big government, and I completely agree. In fact most of the time you will find my political views are libertarian. However, some problems (like national defense) are too big, and the government has to step in to fix them. I think that is the case for this issue.
    The government has an enumerated power to provide for defense. Again, that pesky 10th Amendment is standing in the way of this arguement.

    Meanwhile, fishing in Russia:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." -- Frederic Bastiat

    "Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter." Ernest Hemingway

    The opinions given in my signatures & threads DO NOT reflect the opinions, views, policies, and/or procedures of my employing agency. They are my personal opinions only, thereby releasing my agency of any liability, or involvement in anything posted under the username "Five-0" on Officerresource.com

 

 
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