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  1. #1
    lewisipso's Avatar
    lewisipso is offline Injustice/Indifference/In God we trust
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    Am I missing something?

    Well I guess the time has come. Usually I don't partake much in such subjects because the chance of someone reading one word the wrong way and suddenly you are a religious fanatic. Therefore I will preface this with the fact that, yes, I am a Christian and that's that. However.....


    I am a little concerned and irritated. Here is a tid bit of information I just read. As much of it as I could stand. If you care to read the whole thing please do. If not the title should speak for itself.
    http://ffrf.org/uploads/legal/Summar...entGeitner.PDF


    Seriously?



    The first thing that concerns me is the title of the foundation. Please be introduced to the Freedom from religion foundation. I am not a history expert. I don't pretend to be. I allow the experts to speak and I learn from them. Not as recommended as reading it yourself but I trust my experts. I also have some knowledge of how to investigate things. However I feel certain that I was taught that at least one reason in establishing this country was to have freedom of religion not freedom from it. Either way that's their choice not mine.

    § 119. National Day of Prayer
    The President shall issue each year a proclamation designating the first Thursday in May as a National Day of Prayer on which the people of the United States may turn to God in prayer and meditation at churches, in groups, and as individuals.



    Apparently this “judge” is concerned with the National Day of Prayer being a law establishing a religion. I would like to call her attention to two other words in that same clause. The words are “may turn”. Those would be the words placed in the clause prior to the word God. Two other terms she might want to look up are law and proclamation. One is a law the other is a proclamation. Geez. I was taught two totally different definitions of those words when I was in school. Is this proclamation indeed a law just because it's in the U.S. code? If so then someone needs to make that a little more clear for the simple people such as myself. I mean really.


    Amendment I
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
    Since when is the National Day of Prayer a law? Listen I don't care if you pray to God, Allah, or Ali Baba and the forty thieves. Worship my little girls teddy bear, my left uniform duty boot or a zebra striped 1970 Ford Pinto, I could care less. The National Day of Prayer is just that, a day of prayer encouragement. You want to pray have at it. If you don't then........well......hmmmmm.. ...DON'T.

    I feel ever more each day and by each news release that what little intelligence I do have is being insulted to the extreme. Lawsuits and declarations are being fired off faster than my target rounds. The founding principles of this country and it's commonsense are being attacked and effectively destroyed, tossed aside like trash.
    I attribute this like such. “Normal” life is a bowl of sugar. Nice, sweet and enjoyable and has been long accepted by the masses and working quite well. Along comes some dimwit who doesn't like normalcy by the masses and changes things by adding some salt to the sugar bowl. At first this concept is frowned upon until a few borderline people decide to try it. A little salt doesn't change the taste much so they accept it. Dimwit sees success and adds more salt and convinces others to do the same. Eventually the bowl of sugar turns completely to salt and the masses are no wiser because there was no sudden change in the taste.
    I sure would like to know when these dimwits will stop trying to “fix” things that aren't broken. Oh yeah that's right....they can't be stopped. The bowl of sugar is now too full of salt. Oh well it was good while it lasted.
    In closing I would just like to say....Hey JUDGE CRABBY, ANNE NICOL GAYLOR, ANNIE LAURIE GAYLOR, DAN BARKER, PAUL GAYLOR, PHYLLIS ROSE and JILL DEAN and all those wonderful folks over at the Freedom from religion foundation, put your big girl panties on or GTFO.
    If, by the way I am wrong, and can be proven so, please do. GOD knows I love being proven wrong and I PRAY for the chance to educate myself properly. It just seems funny how our government can force a health care plan down the throats of the American people who don't want but can't encourage them to pray for help about it.
    Do not war for peace. If you must war, war for justice. For without justice there is no peace. -me

    We are who we choose to be.

    R.I.P. Arielle. 08/20/2010-09/16/2012


  2. #2
    MacLean's Avatar
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    The White House has already said they will continue to do the national day of prayer, as this is already being appealed.

    Judge Crabb is, at what I am sure is no surprise to you, a Carter appointee.

    What should also be no surprise is her announcement to pursue "Senior Status."
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

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    lewisipso,

    VERY WELL SAID.....

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    keith720's Avatar
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    We've been saddled with Crabbe in Wisconsin for a looooong time.
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  5. #5
    berserk is offline The reason they do psych evals
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    Why are you concerned and irritated? I assume that you will continue to pray whether or not the White House encourages you to do so, yeah?

  6. #6
    MacLean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by berserk View Post
    Why are you concerned and irritated? I assume that you will continue to pray whether or not the White House encourages you to do so, yeah?
    I can't speak for the OP - I can only speak for me.

    I'm irritated because the definition of the disestablishment cause can be stretched both ways, and this Judge would have it go too far in one direction the same way religious groups would have it go the opposite direction.

    A call for prayer is not establishment, does not endorse a particular religion, and falls well within the disestablishment clauses definition and meaning.

    This Judge is in error.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  7. #7
    lewisipso's Avatar
    lewisipso is offline Injustice/Indifference/In God we trust
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    Quote Originally Posted by berserk View Post
    Why are you concerned and irritated? I assume that you will continue to pray whether or not the White House encourages you to do so, yeah?



    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    I can't speak for the OP - I can only speak for me.

    I'm irritated because the definition of the disestablishment cause can be stretched both ways, and this Judge would have it go too far in one direction the same way religious groups would have it go the opposite direction.

    A call for prayer is not establishment, does not endorse a particular religion, and falls well within the disestablishment clauses definition and meaning.

    This Judge is in error.
    This.
    Do not war for peace. If you must war, war for justice. For without justice there is no peace. -me

    We are who we choose to be.

    R.I.P. Arielle. 08/20/2010-09/16/2012


  8. #8
    armsmaster270's Avatar
    armsmaster270 is offline Ret. Sac. P.D. - 270th M.P. Co., Now with D.H.S.
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    AMEN


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  9. #9
    ex401mp's Avatar
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    I bet that judge has a hammer and sickle stored close by....
    Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I.
    One died for your soul, the other for your freedom. ~ Anon

    si hic carrus commovet non quaerete

    RIP Scott L. Roth- Pfc 1st Platoon,401st MP Co, KIA 12/20/89- Operation Just Cause- Not forgotten.
    ALWAYS FIRST!!!

  10. #10
    berserk is offline The reason they do psych evals
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    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    I can't speak for the OP - I can only speak for me.

    I'm irritated because the definition of the disestablishment cause can be stretched both ways, and this Judge would have it go too far in one direction the same way religious groups would have it go the opposite direction.

    A call for prayer is not establishment, does not endorse a particular religion, and falls well within the disestablishment clauses definition and meaning.

    This Judge is in error.
    A law requiring the president to annually call for the people to "turn to God in prayer" doesn't favor some religions over others, or over a lack of religion? How would you feel if the president were required to call for the people to turn to Allah? Or Odin? Satan? Or to spurn any of the above? The courts have held that the first amendment protects all of us from religious interference by the government, including atheists and non-Christians. A national day of prayer serves no purpose other than to promote a particular kind of religious belief and practice among the people.

  11. #11
    berserk is offline The reason they do psych evals
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    Quote Originally Posted by lewisipso View Post
    This.
    I guess some of us value the separation of church and state more than others, then. I'll ask again: You would still pray if the president didn't encourage you to do so, wouldn't you?

    Personally, I would prefer to keep the government out of my religious life. I've got no problem with presidential authority over secular matters, but I can't think of any politician who I would accept as a religious leader or turn to for spiritual guidance. Particularly not while they are on the clock. Why is it that you want the government sticking its nose where it does not belong?

  12. #12
    berserk is offline The reason they do psych evals
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    Quote Originally Posted by ex401mp View Post
    I bet that judge has a hammer and sickle stored close by....
    Oddly enough, part of the reason for the law requiring a national day of prayer was to hold the forces of communism at bay. I guess that the authors of the law felt that if Americans weren't god-fearing enough, then they wouldn't be real Americans any more.

    If you don't find that chilling, I can't even begin to understand your mindset here.

  13. #13
    ex401mp's Avatar
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    Mandatory prayer I would find chilling. The national day of prayer is your choice if you want to participate or not. I don't personally care if someone prays or not, but it seems that everything nowadays has to be totally politically correct to an extreme. Nobody is being forced to do anything as it is. Communist places are forced into athiesm (at least they used to be anyway) for the good of the collective- that is something I find more chilling. I am not a religous person and my own opinion is that I don't see what the big freakin deal is if there is a national day of prayer. If no one wants to participate, they are free not to.
    Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G.I.
    One died for your soul, the other for your freedom. ~ Anon

    si hic carrus commovet non quaerete

    RIP Scott L. Roth- Pfc 1st Platoon,401st MP Co, KIA 12/20/89- Operation Just Cause- Not forgotten.
    ALWAYS FIRST!!!

  14. #14
    MacLean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by berserk View Post
    A law requiring the president to annually call for the people to "turn to God in prayer" doesn't favor some religions over others, or over a lack of religion? How would you feel if the president were required to call for the people to turn to Allah? Or Odin? Satan? Or to spurn any of the above? The courts have held that the first amendment protects all of us from religious interference by the government, including atheists and non-Christians. A national day of prayer serves no purpose other than to promote a particular kind of religious belief and practice among the people.
    You're beating an empty drum.

    A call to pray can include Allah, Odin, Satan, or whatever tree you worship.

    You are entitled to your opinion, but only *this* court has actually held what you suggest - and is likely to be reversed.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  15. #15
    lewisipso's Avatar
    lewisipso is offline Injustice/Indifference/In God we trust
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    A law requiring the president to annually call for the people to "turn to God in prayer" doesn't favor some religions over others, or over a lack of religion?
    The proclamation doesn't require for people to "turn to God in prayer".

    § 119. National Day of Prayer
    The President shall issue each year a proclamation designating the first Thursday in May as a National Day of Prayer on which the people of the United States may turn to God in prayer and meditation at churches, in groups, and as individuals.

    You would still pray if the president didn't encourage you to do so, wouldn't you?
    Yes.
    Do not war for peace. If you must war, war for justice. For without justice there is no peace. -me

    We are who we choose to be.

    R.I.P. Arielle. 08/20/2010-09/16/2012


  16. #16
    lewisipso's Avatar
    lewisipso is offline Injustice/Indifference/In God we trust
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    First, I do see your point. However this has everything to do with a misinterpretation of law and proclamation. There is no law respecting an establishment of religion only and encouragement of prayer. I see nothing wrong with the government encouraging it citizenry to pray. If my government mandated its citizenry to pray and or mandated it to pray to a idol/god I would be worried indeed.
    If I have my numbers right about 76% of the U.S. profess themselves to be Christian. This country's beginning had a great amount to do with a belief in God. It makes me wonder. If that was good enough to begin with what's wrong with it now?
    Do not war for peace. If you must war, war for justice. For without justice there is no peace. -me

    We are who we choose to be.

    R.I.P. Arielle. 08/20/2010-09/16/2012


  17. #17
    MacLean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by berserk View Post
    I guess that the authors of the law felt that if Americans weren't god-fearing enough, then they wouldn't be real Americans any more.
    The history of the National Day of Prayer predates communism as we presently define it.

    Of interest, in 2003 the NDoP coincided with Beltane - a day of prayer of note to Wiccans.
    I'm your huckleberry...

    Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentus telum est!

    You can be the weapon, and the gun in your hand is a tool - or the gun is a weapon and you are the tool.


    I was looking for a saint who was a devil of a lover,
    but every girl I found was either one way or the other...



  18. #18
    berserk is offline The reason they do psych evals
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    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    A call to pray can include Allah, Odin, Satan, or whatever tree you worship.
    Theoretically, sure, but let's don't kid ourselves. In practical application, we all know what the statute is talking about. Check out the website for the NDOP Task Force if you think that it's really all the same.

    Even if we play that game, and pretend like the proclamation is calling to all religions equally, what about atheism? How does a call for prayer by the president demonstrate equal consideration for the religious and the nonreligious?

    You are entitled to your opinion, but only *this* court has actually held what you suggest - and is likely to be reversed.
    This court refers to a number of similar decisions. Maybe it will be reversed, maybe it won't. Either way, I don't understand why this would be a cause for concern among religious people. As a religious person myself, I don't want to take religious guidance from a political leader. It is not their proper place to call me to pray.

    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    The history of the National Day of Prayer predates communism as we presently define it.

    Of interest, in 2003 the NDoP coincided with Beltane - a day of prayer of note to Wiccans.
    There may have been days of prayer declared at various points in our history, but it's the statutes passed in 1952 and 1988 which are coming under fire in this decision. Those don't exactly predate communism.

    Since 1988, the National Day of Prayer has been the first Thursday in May. That may have fallen on a pagan holiday in 2003, but that is an entirely meaningless coincidence. Bush's proclamation in 2003 did include some lip-service to the religious diversity of our Nation, but it was mostly a call for support for the military.

  19. #19
    berserk is offline The reason they do psych evals
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    Quote Originally Posted by lewisipso View Post
    First, I do see your point. However this has everything to do with a misinterpretation of law and proclamation. There is no law respecting an establishment of religion only and encouragement of prayer. I see nothing wrong with the government encouraging it citizenry to pray. If my government mandated its citizenry to pray and or mandated it to pray to a idol/god I would be worried indeed.
    I get that you hold your beliefs dear, and although our beliefs are very different we're actually on the same page with that. Religion is important to me. I just don't care to receive spiritual guidance from political leaders, any more than I'd want political guidance from spiritual leaders.

    In the case at hand, I don't think it's quite as black and white as "shall" vs. "may." The government is issuing an annual proclamation in support of religion in general, which has the effect of setting the religious above the non-religious.

    I would also be opposed to a statute requiring the president to issue an annual proclamation that the people should not pray (even though we'd be free to keep praying).

    If I have my numbers right about 76% of the U.S. profess themselves to be Christian. This country's beginning had a great amount to do with a belief in God. It makes me wonder. If that was good enough to begin with what's wrong with it now?
    It's not that there's something wrong with Christianity, it's just that we should each be free to follow our own conscience in matters of faith. That means without governmental guidance, and it's not a question of majority rule.

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    berserk is offline The reason they do psych evals
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    Quote Originally Posted by ex401mp View Post
    Mandatory prayer I would find chilling. The national day of prayer is your choice if you want to participate or not. I don't personally care if someone prays or not, but it seems that everything nowadays has to be totally politically correct to an extreme. Nobody is being forced to do anything as it is. Communist places are forced into athiesm (at least they used to be anyway) for the good of the collective- that is something I find more chilling. I am not a religous person and my own opinion is that I don't see what the big freakin deal is if there is a national day of prayer. If no one wants to participate, they are free not to.
    It's not about political correctness. If a coalition of churches wants to declare a national day of prayer, then I'm down with it. If they want to reach out to non-believers, or if they want to reserve the event for their own, more power to them either way.

    It's about separation of church and state, and keeping different authorities in their proper places. The government has no authority to guide us in religious matters, either towards religion or towards atheism. They should keep their nose out of it.

 

 
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